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Generic Is the Porsche 908 LH underpowered?

Discussion in 'Console Lounge' started by Hugo Catarino, Oct 9, 2017.

  1. Hugo Catarino

    Hugo Catarino Hardcore Simmer

    Hello community of Assetto Corsa and developers alike!

    I created this thread to adress something that keeps bugging me for quite some time. I play Assetto in a PS4, so i dont know if this happens in Xbox/PC version.
    As you probably know/can tell from my profile picture :p, i am a huge fan of classic/vintage racing and cars. My personnal favourite is the Ford GT40, and of course, i also love its rival from the 68-69 World SportsCar Championship, the Porsche 908.Both terrific and exciting cars!:cool:

    But in AC, the Porsche 908 doesnt really keeps up with the GT40 during races,when,in reality,it was fast enough to beat the american car in qualify in most of the races they entered. But this does not happen in AC; the 908 is always seconds behind the GT40, in pretty much every track (and i'm talking about AI vs AI;but even if i hotlap the same track with them, the is still a big difference in laptimes). That happens because the Porsche simply does not display the power it has in real life. A lifetime of reading magazines,documentaries and tales from the drivers taught me that:

    • The Porsche 908 had higher top speed than the GT40;
    • The GT40 was a better handling car (yes, a half american/half british car could outmanuever a german one. Thats the '60's for you :D:D) and was much more realiable.
    To prove this, just look at the qualify times both cars did in the 1968 and 1969 24h of Le Mans (back then the track had even longer straights than today and much less turns!):
    This proves what i learnt from years of reaserching about the history of these two: the 908 was faster due to beeing lighter and a higher top speed.is there a better track than La Sarthe for this characteristics to stand out? So why does in Assetto Corsa the GT40 utterly beats the 908 (both AI and with me at the wheel of both cars).The closest track to an older Le Mans in AC is classical Monza: There, the Porsche 908 falls back with 2-3 seconds behind the GT40. Another track, with long straights, is Highlands Long. There is a almost 7 seconds gap between the two cars.
    Both in real life and AC, the GT40 is more than capable of reaching 320km. The Porsche 908 should do around 340-350km. But in game, the car doesnt even quite make it to 290 km/h...there is not much to tune:no transmission or aero, so reaching more than 300km is impossible, let alone 340km. This is, in my opinion, the reason why the AC 908 struggles a lot against a car that should be behind him in tracks with long straights.
    As a matter of fact,in real life, it wasnt only at Le Mans that the Porsche could be faster than the Ford. Take the Brands Hatch 6h as an example:
    Of course, you may say that during qualify, the drivers dont really push the car to the limits. But there is too much of a big difference in lap times for that to be true. Maybe the difference was the drivers? The Gt40 was driven by the likes of Pedro Rodriguez, Jacky Ickx,Lucien Bianchi and Jackie Oliver,all of them were F1 drivers at the time, they really could do insane fast laps.So, no to that. It is general knowledge from vintage lovers like me that, during the 68-69 seasons, the success of the GT40 was due to its extraordinary realiability (hell, the same car, chassis 1075 won 2 consecutive 24h Le Mans and races at Spa, Brands Hatch,Seabring...)The only explanation for that lack of performance of the 908 is, in my opinion, the gap in the speed. The stats of the car seem to be like the real one, and the GT40 performs at it should. But the Porsche not able to pass the 300 km/h in Highlands Long or Monza, that is a fault.
    So, is this something that could be looked at?It would be great that the Porsche could receive and update on its performance, specially now with the Ferrari 330 coming with the Ferrari Pack. The 3 best sportscars in the 60's equally fighting for victory would be outstanding!:p:D

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  3. moodyryder

    moodyryder Hardcore Simmer

    Have you heard of this book Hugo? If not I think you might like it. It's expensive, but it provides a fascinating and at times harrowing insight into racing of that era.
    Screenshot_20171009-230157.png
    Your facts show that the 908 probably is underpowered. Hopefully it might get updated.
    Fat-Alfie, pippo10, paul_wev and 2 others like this.
  4. Hugo Catarino

    Hugo Catarino Hardcore Simmer

    No,i havent,thanks for pointing out,i'll definatly try to get my hands on it :p:)
    paul_wev likes this.
  5. Gevatter

    Gevatter Hardcore Simmer

  6. xystof

    xystof Hardcore Simmer

    Well, from what I briefly read from wiki, there were a shorttail and longtail versions of 908LH. Maybe we have a shorttail version in AC therefore the top speed in this version is lower?
  7. andy-riches

    andy-riches Alien

    The AI cant drive classic cars, I wouldnt use them for comparison. It is close, between those cars, some tracks 1 other tracks the other (I imagine) if anything id say the 908 does have the edge in AC. We did a Riverside International Raceway 200km event a while ago and in that 1 the 908 seemed slightly faster or easier to be consistent. I would link the lap stats from that event but cant do it on my phone.

    I tested the AI some time ago at Monza Junior in the Alfa GTA and they were some 4 or 5 seconds off pace (at such a short track.)
  8. Hugo Catarino

    Hugo Catarino Hardcore Simmer

    The 908 AC version is the long tailed one."LH" stands for "Langheck" or something similar,my german os not that good xD
    But that was on PC right?i saw some videos of close racing between those two,but only in PC.on consoles (at least PS4) the GT40 clearly has a edge.Not just with theAI;im much faster with the GT40 than with the Porsche,in any track.highlands, Nürburgring, Monza, Silverstone,spa,red bull,you name it,im always lapping much faster with the GT40.the difference is too much big to be a bad skill of me when controlling the 908.when i did a custom championship with 3 GT40 and 3 908,the 3 Fords placed ahead both in qualify,race,and final standings too
    Ace Pumpkin and @P73 like this.
  9. LeDude83

    LeDude83 Alien

    Hi mate. To push your concern further from "my opinion" to "fact" then maybe ask a number of drivers to hotlap both cars. So far it's hard to tell because we don't know you or how you drive.

    Once you have some consistent drivers put down a couple of laps you'll have data. Either the data shows there's no issue or that there is one.

    IMO only then will the devs be interested in looking into this. The past has shown that if there IS an issue, the devs will fix it.

    Maybe use @Graveltrap 's weekly hotlap challenge thread to recruit some consistent drivers.
    Ace Pumpkin and Hugo Catarino like this.
  10. Hugo Catarino

    Hugo Catarino Hardcore Simmer

    Thats a good ideia,i'll try to do that. I'm a average driver, i can control both cars fairly decently.but like i said,its not only when i drive both cars that i can tell the difference;there is also a good gap with the AI.when i hosted the WHL,one of my challenges was the GT40 on Highlands Long,and the record time was a 3.50/3.49 (cant exactly tell),and most average times were around 3.53-3.58,so i think that is a good place to start :)
    Ace Pumpkin and LeDude83 like this.
  11. xystof

    xystof Hardcore Simmer

    I gave it a go at classic Monza and with aero max on low, tyres pressure few clicks up, and as low fuel as I could take (15-20l) I was able to hit 302 km/h on the end of the final straight with 2 longest gear ratios.
    In 330 P4 it gets even more interesting (as it has superior weight/power ratio than 908LH) as with playing with gears, getting low fuel, and pressuring up the tyres by few psis I was able only to hit 290~292 km/h at the end of the main straight...

    And the the most interesting thing - GT40 with default setup (incl. fuel) went 314 km/h without any problem.

    EDIT: could anyone check how fast was 330 P4 against GT40 and 908LH??? (EDIT2: in real life that is - i.e. at 24h of Daytona or other races?) Because if 908LH is underpowered against GT40, then it could be that 330 P4 is underpowered against both 908LH and GT40.
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
  12. Hugo Catarino

    Hugo Catarino Hardcore Simmer

    On ps4 you cant change gear ratios on the 908 :( and now you are telling me that the 330 (the fastest of all 3) is actually the slowest?:( :(
  13. andy-riches

    andy-riches Alien

    Hugo Catarino likes this.
  14. Luis Branco

    Luis Branco Simracer

  15. David Wright

    David Wright Simracer

    The Racing Porsches by Paul Frere states the longtail 908s could reach around 200 mph (320 km/h) at Le Mans. Racing in the Rain by John Horsman indicates the Gulf GT40s were reaching around 205 mph (330 km/h). This superiority isn't too surprising. Maximum speed is primarily determined by power and drag. The GT40 had around 430 bhp while the 908 had 350 bhp. The 908 LH wasn't as slippy as it might appear. Porsche measured the drag factor as 0.36.

    Given the Ferrari P4s beautiful curves, it might come as a surprise that Ferrari only credit it with a maximum speed of 198 mph (320 km/h).
  16. Luis Branco

    Luis Branco Simracer

    At Nardo I've managed 310 km/h in the 908, 298 km/h in the P4 and 320 km/h in the GT40.
    Although a bit shy of Le Mans top speed both the 908 and GT40 are separated by the same difference, 10 km/h and the P4 is the slowest of the three, but only to 2 km/h keeping it from joining the 300 club.
  17. According to Mulsanne's Corner's aero database, the 908 produced over 40% less drag than the GT40...that's quite the difference. The 908's reported 0.345 Cd may seem large, but because the frontal area of the car is so tiny, the CdA of the car is exceptionally low.
  18. Hugo Catarino

    Hugo Catarino Hardcore Simmer

    There is a piece of history i'm going to share,its pretty easy to find it on google. So,in the 1969 race of 24h Le Mans, Jacky Icx (GT40 n°6) and Hans Hermman (Porsche 908 n°64) battled each other for the last 1h30,constantly overtaking one another.the beginning of the last lap saw the GT40 ahead.Icx,knowing that the Porsche had brake problems,pretended to have brake problems himself in Tertre Rouge (the corner before the 6km Mulsanne Straight) and allowed Hermman to overtake him,because he knew that the Porsche had a higher top speed and he wanted to catch the drag from it,so we could slipstream overtake again at the end of Mulsanne straight and then he could defend his position until the end of the lap.This was told by Icx himself.Both cars were very closed in that departament,but history tell us that the 908 was slightly faster
    Thats interesting,thanks for sharing.About the Porsche, they seem a bitt off from what i always read about the car.but if they are true,thats a huge improvement over the almost 30km/h difference that exists in AC (on PS4).About the Ferrari,im not at all surprised.the 330 raced against the GT40 mkIV,the most powerfull version of the GT40's at Le Mans,and the Ferrari was a bitt off pace (around 4 seconds slower).thats understandable due to top speed differences.
    I've came to the conclusion that 908 PC and PS4 are different.It appears that on PC the car runs faster and its a good match for the GT40.on PS4 however,that does not happen.i could live with a 10km difference,would not matter that much.but on Ps4,there is a 24/25 km difference.the 908 doesnt even get passed the 300 km/h mark...
    Kriig and @P73 like this.
  19. pankykapus

    pankykapus KS Dev Team Staff Member KS Dev Team

    Well, the default gearing on the 908 is only good for 290kph or so, you need the longest gear set to achieve around 310kph (when given the space).

    Can you confirm that you don't have that option on the PS4? Make sure you're looking for Gear Sets instead of Final Gear. Let us know please.
  20. xystof

    xystof Hardcore Simmer

    Let's be honest 330 P4 in theory should humiliate GT40 mkII (as Ferrari did at Daytona) - it has by far better power/weight ratio and I won't believe it has that much more drag that it would give GT40 mkII chance to beat the power of its Ferrari F1 engine... It should be faster than 908LH too I recon.
    MaxStrong01 and Ace Pumpkin like this.
  21. pankykapus

    pankykapus KS Dev Team Staff Member KS Dev Team

    We don't have the mkII, we have the JW Automotive mkI GT40 revised for the '68 and '69 Le Mans race.
    Ace Pumpkin likes this.

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