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ACC general support Note about silent updates Startup troubleshooting ACC savegame reports

New Tyre V7: next step to realism or just a trueman show?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat Room' started by FALK, Apr 4, 2016.

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Page 2 of 14
  1. kikie

    kikie Simracer

    My view; it is a simulation, it is a game and it will never be the same as the real thing. It is not even possible to have a real life experience with a game. The problem is the hardware. Gaming computers are not powerful enough to make all the necessary calculations of real life physics. Than there is the steering wheel, and pedals. I have a G27 with a real 35cm OMP wheel. The G27 is a toy and even if the tyre model and overall physics of AC is exactly the same as in real life, the bottleneck is still the G27 steering wheel and pedals. And maybe the math is still too difficult to implement every real life physics parameter to get real life results?

    I had the opportunity to test the AccuForce and although this is a piece of crap the best wheel I have ever tried and even with the correct FFB settings, it still doesn't feel 100% correct, although it was close, close enough to have fun. There is also the input lag, which is very low if you have a very good monitor but the input lag will always be, very, very, slightly a problem when you strife for perfection.

    Also a problem is the weather, wind and track conditions etc... . This also part of the real life physics not included ingame. The lack of real life weather, wind and track conditions makes a sim less real.

    The FFB is another thing that is, for me personally, a problem. FFB is not realistic. In a real car, you have to feel with your body what the car does, you have to see what the car does. In a game most people need to have FFB because it is not possible to see and feel what a car does because you are sitting behind a monitor in a stationary seat.
    Also, the FFB is wrong when it comes to oversteer. When a car oversteers in real life, the steering wheel doesn't get heavier like in a driving/racing sim. In a sim, when a car oversteer and you have a certain amount of FFB, the feel of the steering wheel gets heavier and starts to countersteer automatically with force. This is so wrong, so wrong that I always set the FFB to a minimun. And yes, I know what I'm talking about because I have had 10 years of real life experience with car control here and an extensive three day training in the snow here.


    I have tried the Ruf, yellow bird and I can't say that I felt any difference compared to the previous tyre model. Mayb if I do some more driving and try to drift (this is something I still suck at big time in AC), I feel a difference but so far, nope, I haven't felt any difference.

    Maybe it is a placebo effect for many people or maybe there really is a difference, I don't know. I'm just an ordinary daily driver with a little real life car control experience and a little bit of real life track experience. But that is it.
     
    kikie, Apr 4, 2016
    #21
    cerebralvortex, SvenUilhoorn and Minolin like this.
  2. Tom 00

    Tom 00 Simracer

    I think the update is supurb, track and tyre update spot on, just bcc is not kunos's finest hour IMHO.
     
    Tom 00, Apr 4, 2016
    #22
    colombianomd, eXo, nanucq and 1 other person like this.
  3. Sleeper Service

    Sleeper Service Hardcore Simmer

    Part of the problem for me is that there is an ever increasing number of "experts" on the forum and using Assetto Corsa imho. I'm not out there driving real versions of all the content in AC on a daily basis, nor am I ever likely to be. Over the years that I have been driving I do have some experience of various "formula" from everyday boxes to slicks and wings open wheelers. AC is an evolving product and from one release to the next it is going to change as the physics engine, tyre model and all the rest of it is further defined. For me, AC continues to head in the right direction, based on my personal experiences of driving real cars.

    The latest tyre model is closer to what I would expect when driving a real car than it has been previously. It's never going to completely replicate what I feel when I head out to do the weekly shop or I drive with a bit more verve over the moors roads when I want to enjoy myself a little more as I haven't got any force acting through my backside and I haven't got any fear of trashing what I'm driving in sim... it is getting closer to what I have experienced through the wheel however.

    It's never going to be 100%. Hotlappers complaining that their pb's are in disarray instead of giving some constructive feedback (scuse the pun) might make the devs feel a little more inclined to take on board some of those "issues".

    Nil illegitimi carborundum.
     
    Sleeper Service, Apr 4, 2016
    #23
    Blamer, Christopher Low, Epistolarius and 5 others like this.
  4. Mogster

    Mogster Alien

    I don't feel the driving physics is changing radically each update, many cars were still on V5, they hadn't changed in some time.

    I tend to drive the less exotic road cars and historic stuff. When I'm driving in real life I get that ooerrr.. feeling as I reach the limit. The car starts to move around, you can feel you're at the sensible limit of the suspension and tyres, I can feel that more in AC now it's great :) Rather than just going over the limit and ending up in the barriers with 1.5 I feel it's being communicated more by the sim and I can respond to that information. Schwedencruz in the stock BMW 1M used to be just seriously hairy, now I can find the limit and be right on the edge of losing it then pull it back just a bit... fantastic :)
     
    Mogster, Apr 4, 2016
    #24
    nanucq, Sleeper Service and LeDude83 like this.
  5. KZAQ666

    KZAQ666 Gamer

    I have to say the GT2 tyres are the real triumph of this 1.5. It is like in real life now, no more is the softest fastest everywhere but you have to have the right compound for the right conditions driven in the right way. WEC Michelin tyres for example are like that, no soft-medium-hard but different compounds for different conditions, all potentially equally fast. First sim that has this even close to right. It's also no longer possible to push every lap due to overheating, and slides and lockups give severe penalties in overheating tyres. It is goddamn brilliant, plz don't ever change Kunos!
     
    KZAQ666, Apr 4, 2016
    #25
    kro, Ricky Reject, LeDude83 and 1 other person like this.
  6. Quffy

    Quffy Alien

    The steering wheel forces do get lower in AC when oversteer happens. You can provoke it with lift off oversteer technique, or with the handbrake. Although other cars will get understeer with lifting off the throttle, but try to flick it from left to right + lift off to get oversteer.

    When does the steering wheel not get lighter? When the front suspensions are loaded. But when the suspensions get lighter is when you'll feel the steering forces getting lighter as well. But you need to understand if the car is getting the front heavier (loaded, pushing against the ground) and the rear lighter; here you'll feel a bit lighter forces but mostly the steering wheel will remain heavy. So to get light steering wheel, the opposite has to happen, rear gets loaded and the front gets light, here you'll definitely feel the steering lighter.
     
    Quffy, Apr 4, 2016
    #26
  7. Seanspeed

    Seanspeed Hardcore Simmer

    n/m
     
    Seanspeed, Apr 4, 2016
    #27
  8. mistery

    mistery Hardcore Simmer

    My new favorite sim quote. Your forum display name seems to really suit you. :)
     
    mistery, Apr 4, 2016
    #28
    Traind and TDS like this.
  9. fabT

    fabT Alien

    the only thing i really don't like of v7 tyres is the lack of transversal grip at very low speed ( < 70kmh ).
    Vintage GT cars on semi-slicks are very prone to do very long and slow slides on hairpins / low speed turns.
    These slides feel quite unnatural and that's evident watching replays.
     
    fabT, Apr 4, 2016
    #29
  10. Aristotelis

    Aristotelis Will it drift? Staff Member KS Dev Team

    Internet and opinions exaggerate things. Always. Sometimes we need to take things into perspective and by "we" I don't intend only us devs, but also "we" as a whole community.

    A couple of things to keep in mind.
    - Vehicle physics, tyre behavior, aerodynamics are all an ongoing research for every single sim developer out there and also for the same manufacturers. Lot's of patents, lot's of secrecy, lot's of magic sauce. On top of that, put personal sensations to the loop and yeah...

    - Internet gave us the golden age of game development. In simracing in particular, we now get physics updates every 3 to 6 month, and I'm talking about substantial ones. 20 years ago, GPL was the undiscussed king of driving simulation. It might still be fun and exciting to drive nowadays (which is an honour to the driving model that Sir Kaemmer build back in the days) but in terms of physics accuracy, complexity and detail is simply laughable now. We had to wait 3 years until the release of Nascar Racing 4 with a slightly updated GPL physics engine... 3 years! Now every simulator gets physics updates at least every 6 months.

    - Generally we tend to forget the past and look at it with nostalgic feelings. Take AI for example. GPL AI is still thought as amazingly good. Yet people tend to forget that in order to avoid you, the AI would magically move left or right during racing, completely ignoring of any physics calculations. We tend to ignore that GTLegends and GTR AI would be extremely slow in the opening lap, especially if you had mixed classes in the game and that you could overtake the whole grid in the first 2 corners. The trick to have good AI races was to wait the pack to open up, then start racing them. I'm not saying that AC AI is good, I'm just saying that AI in general has problems and it's difficult... it's a universal issue.

    So let me get back to the AC physics. Our philosophy regarding vehicle handling and physics has always been the same, based also on our not so small real life experience that we have had and still are lucky to have. Cars are engineered with million of hours of development work by very skilful engineers and every single one of them has just one thing in mind. To create a car that does NOT kill its driver. To be fast yet easy to push close to the limit and safe.
    If you try the AC tech preview and now the new v1.5 you will be certainly capable of understand this philosophy in the physics of each car in AC. It is through this philosophy that we try to create the cars and when a car is unstable then we know that something is not perfectly good.
    We also develop our physics engine step by step. If a car should be more difficult but to do so we need to make it unstable under the limit, then we won't. We will make it stable under the limit and then try to understand what makes it more difficult over the limit.
    If you compare older versions of AC to newer ones, you'll see this evolution.
    Stable cars with a bit too easy over the limit handling.
    Stable cars with a bit less easy over the limit handling
    Stable cars with a bit harder over the limit handling and so on.
    From what I can recall there was just one situation where the handling of AC became unstable, I think around v1.2 and that was because we had found a bug in the core and by eliminating it, it created an overall instability especially on coasting. Hard work, data collection and verification, put things back to normal again in the next version.

    Also, from what I recall there was also just one situation when we took a jump instead of a single step and that was with the introduction of V5/V6 tyres. The amount of work needed to redo all the tyres was simply over my capabilities for such a small amount of time. We had to do the job we did in about 2 years before the first early access public release of AC, but in just 3 months and for the triple amount of cars. As a result the v1.4 of AC had up an downs and was generally not optimized enough. We tried hard and what you have now with v1.5 is a much more mature physics engine with attention to detail. On top of that, many extra physics features.

    So where's that "completely different experience" between the various versions of AC? Well how about there isn't any. Yes there are differences of course, but there isn't night and day.
    Here are some objective numbers, you can't argue with numbers right?
    The difference in grip while sliding from the v1.4 to v1.5 is in percentage: 3% for street tyres, 1% for semislicks, 0% (yes zero) for slick GT tyres. How you arrive at that part of the grip curve has changed in speed. It is a tiny bit faster for street tyres, a bit faster for semislicks and faster for GT tyres.
    Aero yaw you say? Rear diffusers depending on car and configuration can lose from 1.25% to 4% of downforce at... 30°...yes, THIRTY degrees of yaw angle (drift)

    If I've had announce to you those crude numbers I'm pretty sure most of you would say "hey that's no difference at all, you're playing with numbers that will give no change to actual driving!". But when you drive it you feel the difference and you might like it a lot or somebody might not like it. When you have no actual data to deal with or you know your audience doesn't have or understand the actual data, then you need to express an opinion and opinions are often sensationalistic.
    Let me take as an example Empty Box' video.
    Please believe me I don't want to point a finger to Empty Box nor to offend him, I think he does entertaining videos and a good service to the community. I apologize to you and to him in advance if my words might sound offensive in anyway, I really have no intention.
    So at 4:50 of his video, he starts talking about physics and he says that the "driving is basically entirely different!". Well it's not. The sensations are different, not entirely if I may add, but yeah I can understand why he says that. He then says that there is a "wider margin of balance handling" and that is "less twitchy and less sensitive" but "however at the same time if you go out of that window, things do get a bit worse"
    Again he is right but again that's an opinion based on his personal sensations. I might agree, you might agree, but being that an opinion there is no other way to emphasize on that, than to exaggerate.
    This is typical also with professional drivers. You have certainly hear professional drivers complaining about "no grip" situations if they can't heat up the tyres. Actually no, let me show you how they usually express themselves in such situations: "NO GRIP! NO GRIP! NO GRIP AT ALL, IMPOSSIBLE TO DRIVE THE DAMN THING!"
    I know, we have our offices in the race track...
    You want to know the difference in grip between a cold tyre and a properly heated up tyre? 2-4%.

    So as you can see, we developers are trying to figure out changes and situations in a range of 0.1% to 1% for micro differences and 1% to 4% for macro differences. And we have thousands of numbers that can influence this general grip feel. So it's a big juggling of available real data, unknown data, personal feel, drivers feedback, players (yes why not) feedback and experience... And I'm pretty sure we as KUNOS simulazioni are not the only developers that we have to deal with that, but I'm 99.999% sure that the same headaches happen inside iRacing, ISI, Reiza, Sector3, WMD and so on (no particular preference in this order... nowadays we have to point out that too... bah)

    So yeah if you've read all my wall of text and still do not understand what I'm talking about, heres my conclusion.
    "All journalists swear that the latest Porsche 911 has none of the understeer of the previous model!" for the last... 50 years.
    Opinions are emphatic and usually exaggerated, take them always with a grain of salt and have perspective.
    If you think that in 3 days you've managed to understand exactly what a simulated racing car does because you tried your last setup and you've been faster/slower for whatever reason, then think again. Devs usually need years to decide on a model and then months to go from one evolution to the other. If you don't understand what has changed or why, ask a developer. At least in our forum it's very easy to do so and we think we are friendly enough. If you are polite and respectful you get extra bonus points meaning that we are more willing to reply and understand your point of view and hey... you might be good enough to show us a new bug or better data and we will always thank you for that :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2016
    Aristotelis, Apr 4, 2016
    #30
    jes0369, Auranapse, Salad Fingers and 132 others like this.
  11. V8_KB

    V8_KB Alien

    Yeah read/listen different opinions but I'd add something (imo) very important to that. Have your own opinion and don't let it be influenced by others judgment.

    Can we have an official "Aris thread" where all his (your) great posts would be gathered in one place without any option to post a reply there? And make it sticky of course. ;)
     
    V8_KB, Apr 4, 2016
    #31
    Alberto Llinares, Tony74, cerebralvortex and 15 others like this.
  12. LilSki

    LilSki Alien

    Most informative post I have read in a while! Everybody is a physics "expert" these days and man is it getting old. Just drive the damn thing and have fun.
     
    LilSki, Apr 4, 2016
    #32
    offcorsa, Alberto Llinares, Fat-Alfie and 15 others like this.
  13. kofotsjanne

    kofotsjanne Alien

    I agree that it was a very informative post BUT: Everone doesnt think they are physics experts
    Theres a huge difference between:
    1. Try to explain what they feel and ask
    2. Say that its completely wrong and that the cars arent supposed to behave that way and scream arcade/simcade without having any real life experience of the cars/numbers

    Most people I have seen on this forum is number 1. If this thread wasnt started you wouldnt have read that post from Aris for example.
     
    kofotsjanne, Apr 4, 2016
    #33
    PuffTheMagicBelgian, witoldinho, donShere and 9 others like this.
  14. Aristotelis

    Aristotelis Will it drift? Staff Member KS Dev Team

    Yes I agree, I must say that the discussions in our forums are VERY constructive, educated and also entertaining to read. Thanks people.
     
    Aristotelis, Apr 4, 2016
    #34
    Deleted member 18758, Vel, nate and 13 others like this.
  15. LilSki

    LilSki Alien

    Sorry I have been reading a bunch on "other" forums where certain people who are not allowed here continue to spew senseless hatred. I agree things around here have been 100x more civil and informative.
     
    LilSki, Apr 4, 2016
    #35
    nate, TDS and stefanoCasillo like this.
  16. LeDude83

    LeDude83 Alien

    It's the reason why I didn't even watch Empty Box's review. He is a YT gaming broadcaster with as much or as little real track experience as the average AC forum user so his opinion is as valid as any other. The intriguing thing is that his well-edited videos and corporate design make it seem a lot more official and might cause people to simply adopt his views without questioning or even start to doubt their own former impression.

    Only when I don't have access to a game I will watch stuff like that.
     
    LeDude83, Apr 4, 2016
    #36
    cerebralvortex, Tiago Fortuna and V8_KB like this.
  17. esox71

    esox71 Alien

    [​IMG]
    Vroom vroom.......Vroom vroom......Vroom vroom......;)
     
    esox71, Apr 4, 2016
    #37
    kro, TDS, iVG and 2 others like this.
  18. LeDude83

    LeDude83 Alien

    I wonder if at some point in time someone will be able to explain that guy to me :D

    Sorry...back on topic ;)
     
    LeDude83, Apr 4, 2016
    #38
    Michael Hornbuckle and kofotsjanne like this.
  19. stefanoCasillo

    stefanoCasillo Alien

    we just had to ban a couple bad apples to get there :p
     
    stefanoCasillo, Apr 4, 2016
    #39
    Deleted member 18758, Vel, MarcoTav and 6 others like this.
  20. esox71

    esox71 Alien

    That guy?
    It's a joke dude.
    Sorry if it's way over yer head.
     
    esox71, Apr 4, 2016
    #40
    donShere and LeDude83 like this.
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