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Pit stop and race against AI

Discussion in 'Chit Chat Room' started by Briklebritt, Sep 25, 2017.

  1. Briklebritt

    Briklebritt Simracer

    Are there plans to bring pit stops for single player races against AI in? Are there official informations about this?
     
    mantasisg 2 likes this.

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  3. Jack Bancroft

    Jack Bancroft Simracer

    In singleplayer, we already have pitstops but can't set is a mandatory stop.
     
  4. data777

    data777 Rookie

    And at the moment the AI does not calculate any pit strategies but only pits for fuel when the tank is empty. Tyres are used until they die and beyond.
     
  5. Briklebritt

    Briklebritt Simracer

    That´s sad :eek:
    Hope they will put in some work here with next update
     
  6. Skybird

    Skybird Alien

    Three years, and still nothing reasonable in this regard.

    Race options, number of laps to drive or time to drive, box to tick whether or not there shall be a mandatory pitstop in the second third of the race or not, randomiser for the AI cars' choice when lap exactly to pass that mandatory pitstop.

    Done.

    Things could be so simple when just keeping them simple. AI doing clever strategy calculations is not needed. I repeat: is not needed. Player can set fuel for all cars at racestart, and how much to refuel during mandatory pitstop gets calculated simply by the mean lap value until then. Tires get chnagd as well, no matter their wear. Or untick box to not change tyres.

    Keep it simple.
     
    reidz and Mike1304 like this.
  7. demetri

    demetri Hardcore Simmer

    No, it's not that simple as you wrote. You covered a very narrow scenario and put quite a bit of burden on the user. What if I don't want pitstop in the last third of the race but would like it in the middle or even during any lap? How would I, the user, know how much fuel to put into each AI car and if it needs to change tires and do you really think it is a good idea to make me to set that? I see that your proposal would be good enough for you, but how many more people would want that?

    I think a better and more generic solution is needed for that feature to succeed. E.g. each car can have average fuel usage data for time (L/hr) and distance (L/km). It won't be accurate of course, but will probably be enough for initial ballpark estimation. Maybe there's already something like that, as AI needs to have some fuel put into the car for the race now even without mandatory pitstop, but I noticed that during longer races there's no consistency for when AI would pit for fuel. I've seen some cars running into the pits on lap 5 or 6 of a 35-lap long race, while other cars would pit close to the end and some would never do it. Go figure.

    Anyway, the algorithm based on that average could estimate the initial fuel load enough to make the pit somewhere in the middle of the pit window with a bit of extra to be safe. Then, during the race, it will know the actual fuel usage rate and may or may not alter that scheduled pit stop time based on the actual fuel usage and tire wear and soem randomness to avoid all cars pitting at the same time. How much to pour in can be calculated just like you wrote. Whether AI needs to change tires is ideally calculated based on extra time required for the tire change (that's easy) versus the estimated time lost in the rest of the race while driving on worn tires (that one looks complicated, I'm not sure there's enough data for the AI algorithm to predict the loss of pace, but maybe some heuristic can be done here). This does not cover the whole spectrum of real people's pit strategies and tactics (things like being stuck behind a slower car after a longer pitstop, undercutting an opponent, etc), but it still would be a very useful an welcomed feature I'm sure.

    Now you may already see that a proper implementation is not that easy-peasy and would require a considerable amount of developers' effort. And I probably missed a few other things during my quick analysis of the problem.

    We've already had a bunch of half-assed quick and dirty features added to the game that almost never got used (prevent people from joining in the middle of the race comes to mind first, there're others), so I'd rather have them implemented it properly or not spend any time on it at all and do some other useful things.

    @Lord Kunos, can we hope to get something like this if not in AC then in the next game?
     
  8. mms

    mms Alien

    There's no need for pit stops in a sailing simulator :D:D:D
     
    stefanoCasillo likes this.
  9. demetri

    demetri Hardcore Simmer

    What, Stefano got a yacht ahead of Mr.Bell?
    Or there's some other sailing-related meme that I missed?
     
  10. mms

    mms Alien

    The rumor has it that Kunos's next title will be a sailing simulator, that's probably why we got the wind simulated in AC after all :)

    Sorry for the OT...
     
  11. Skybird

    Skybird Alien

    Keep it simple.

    You must not care for how much fuel the AI loads dzuring pitstop - or whether it loads any fuel at all. That it makes a pitstop because it is mandatory by the rules - that is what is important. In past DTM seasons, it was like I said: mandatory pitstop in second third of the race. Nobody cared what team put in how much fuel , if any. That they made a pitstop withion a certain timeframe, that is what was mnandatory.

    You already want to delay again by not getting a practicable solution that can be easier and thus: faster implemented with less workload, but you want one that is PERFECT. Al autonomous, all perfect, super-dooper. And for that you will to wait another three years, eh?

    In the very beginning of AC, there was no weather presets. Some people complained about that, and I recall I posted that they should at least add some simple >cosmetic cheats< to give the >illusion< at least of changing weather conditions. I do not know whether they did it because my posting , probbaly not :) , but they did right what I described. And that is what we have since then, until now. The weather there is now, is not real, it is purely cosmetic, it knows now real humidity on the track surface due to foggy weather and so forth, and it certainly will never rain even if it looks it will rain any moment. But it changes the immersion, it adds to the enjoyment for those who wanted to have the illusion of driving in fog. Even if the driving is like in hot, dry weather.

    I am all for perfection, if it can be reached, but after three years waiting I am already satisfied by now if I just get a workable pitstop: cars move in, stop a while, then move out. If the AI drinks a coke in the box - I don't care, and if it drinks none, fine for me. What they do during the break, I am not interested in. What I care for, is this: I feel like wanting to do a 10 lap race and have cars lapping during the 4th-7rh lap, no matter their fuel and tyres. I plan my pitstop strategy, what the others do, is not my concern. That they lap at all - that is the only thing I am interested in. Whether they drive on with the same tyres, or with 25%, 50% or 100% fuel capacity refueling - who cares? I don't. I just want the show mixing up the standings that pitting can cause, the chaos, the "Argh!"-moment when I need to come in and get a penalty for pit speeding, or the anger when I miss my correct box. I know it working so well like I describe in Raceroom, and I tell everbody, it can be great - hm, "fun". I could write a nnovel on all the ptistop dramas that I have had and seen and doen to myself. It can heat things up. It adds to the immersion. How much fuel the others have in their tank, and what PSI on their tyres - I do not note that when racing, and I don't care. That I am not the only one loosing time while pitting - that is what I am after. The others have to pit at least once during that second third as well, else I am masisvely disadvanatged when I am the only one doing it. I lose severla dozen seconds in time then.

    What I suggest, is a practicable solution for the meantime, right because it keeps things simple. Thats why I imagine it can be easier implemented. And that is what counts until we get a better solution.

    If we ever get a better solution, that is. After three years, I am not optimistic anymore on this feature. Like I also do not wait for night and rain races. :)
     
    Mike1304 and GCCRacer like this.
  12. demetri

    demetri Hardcore Simmer

    With all due respect, but pit-stops in 10 laps race make absolutely no sense (to me at least), unless that's Nords or a similar length track. Having them they way you want would be yet another gimmick. And there aren't pit speeding penalties in AC, heck, we even don't have a manual pit limiter, I'd rather ask them add that and it looks much easier to implement.
    My proposed solution is not perfect, btw, I left a lot of things that you would encounter in a quality online race out. You might want to try that if you want real drama, battling AI is much less fun anyway.
     
  13. Skybird

    Skybird Alien

    You must not use it. Other sims experience shows that people like it a lot to have non-full length races with pitstops nevertheless. You simply do not understand what it is about: Its the circumstance of the p0titing itself, the hectic and confusion it can bring into a race, the mixing up of the ranklings becaseu drivers mess it it somehow. Its fun.

    Thats why other sims leave it to players to decide whether theyx want to have it on, or off. You don'T oike it? Dont use it.

    You know what I do not want? To set race pöengths of for exmaple 50 minutes in order to see the AI finally pitting, becasue they are beign denied to use less fuel than the car in reality could hold.

    Its a game. There are a lot of things that are not "realistic" in it. Starting with the cvircumstance that it is not reality itself, but just a "sim".

    When I have usually 30-40 minute races in Raceroom, and I have passed my pitstop without speeding in pitlane, without missing my box, or running into the wall, and braking right before the white line where speed limit begins, and then get mtoor off, tyres, fuel, motor on done in a fluid sequence witho9ut wasting time, I leave pits and return to track with a wide grin on my face and a strong sense of releif that it is over. And then I see how the other cars in the near laps before or after my stop have reshuffled the standings a bit, I grin even more, or curse, it depends. An d when I made a maistke while pitting and lose time, I curse like a "Rohrspatz".

    Its fun. Not reality. If it always were just about being "real", they should have never needed to implement their fake weather sets. Or old cars that cannot be bought anyway. Tracks that do not exist anymore.

    Man, dont make this so complicated.

    And btw, you are, like everybody else, just a victim of your personal taste. Bet that most sim racers still prefer to drive single player, not online? ;) That you like online racing, does not mean that everybody else, or just the majority, is like you. ;)
     
    Mike1304 likes this.
  14. demetri

    demetri Hardcore Simmer

    There's nothing hectic in AC pitstops the way they are done currently. Pit limiter is automatic, you don't get penalty for speeding into pits, the whole pit area is a no-clip zone, so other cars or mechanics don't bother you. You simply drive into pitlane and stop at your box, that's it. Where's the challenge, seriously? Driving into the pits not hitting any walls? Hardly an accomplishment.

    For long races it makes sense as some strategy comes to play: you may run full tank and do just splash and dash at any moment of the race, or you might take fuel for 2/3 of the race and stop accordingly, or you might pit mid-way and also change tires while picking a softer compound. Each strategy has its own strong points and disadvantages and sometimes it's not obvious which one is better, it highly depends on the track, weather, your own ability to run consistent fast laps to establish a gap, passing skills, etc.

    As for online racing, I think three main reasons for people not driving online are (in no particular order):
    1) Fear of being a rolling chicane
    2) Abundance of idiots in open public lobbies
    3) Running some exotic combo nobody else cares for

    #1 can be greatly improved when you start racing against real people as they can often teach you a thing or two. I've seen people gaining seconds of laptime pace in a few months after they went online
    #2 is solved by avoiding those places and racing with good people. MR-AB servers, SRS, RaceDepartment or some league, but the last one is a whole another level of commitment, so it's definitely not for everyone
    #3 is probably not possible to solve unless one would want to campaign a lot to bring people onboard
     
  15. GCCRacer

    GCCRacer Simracer

    Skybird, thanks for making an excellent case and suggestion.

    Demetri: A lot of us don't have the time to run 60min+ races. And a lot of us don't want to go online. What we want is an offline race where we have the challenge to make a pitstop, pick a strategy for ourselves, and have the AI also spent time in the pits. As Skybird said a mandatory single stop within the middle third of a race should be manageable code-wise, and we couldn't care less what the AI does for strategy.
     
    Mike1304 likes this.
  16. Skybird

    Skybird Alien

    Then you have never left the box Oschersleben with its short exit and supertight and difficult to see right turn before track. I have had hairraising pit exits there. As one example. Or the aI car ghost become material again behind the exit line - what do i do: press the pedal and hope to overtake it before we become material again, or let it pass, to avoid collision? Then, pit exists like the hairpin at classic boxes at Spa. Time and again I have seen players running into the wall there - on the itlane, not the track.

    A lot can go wrong while pitting. I feel relief every time I made it through without something bad happening. Its exciting.

    The other points: simply have a manual speedlimit button, and they become invalid. Have the player to brake down to speed limit before the white line at pit entry. This will be needed to be practcied for the race, else you lose too much time, or overspeed. Its not about adding something, but just removing something that was added without too close a look at things.

    All that is not relevant much for my reasoning, and I described by now what it is about. I expereince this way since two years in Raceroom, and it makes a huge difference to the drama unfolding. The way it is now is like having a Nascar game without yellow phases.

    For some it may be ike that, but you again see things exclusively from what you can imagine. But many players simply do not like to have to drive at a point of time they cannot choose to their liking. They do not care for the chatter, they do not care for externally enforced timetables, or cannot afford them since real life gets in the way, they want to just hop in and have fun, under conditions and with cars and tracks of their choice.

    What I suggested here, is not any anybody's cost. People not wanting to have pitstop in their race event, simply do not tick that box in the menu, and thats all. What I point out is a soltuion to get pitstops included withoht needing to spend all that perfectionising workload into it that you hinted at earlier. The wait has been extremely long already. I want something functioning now than in another two years, that is: when I decide on a race with pitting, has to pit as well. Whether it has a pizza or a tank refueling in box, is of zero interest. It just does not matter.

    And do not be mistaken, in close races, a lot can go wrong while pitting. Be too fast, and you get a drive through penalty. Be too slow, and you lose a place or two. Raceroom i full of stories like this for me, and really: it chnages the game, it is big fun. Although at times you just curse and curse on. You hit the wrong key (equals to the tyre guy not loosenign the screw fast enough). Your fuel calculation was wrong, and in the last lap you dry out. You come in before that guy, and leave pits behind him. You had a big lead, and when leaving pits, you are in the middle of the crowd and ask when wikl the other rival pit, and how long will he take.

    Pitstops as a thing of regulation, not function exclusively. In DTM you had to pit even if you had no fuel or tyre need: regulation demanded it. Not really a first in motor sports.

    Additonal to the mandatory pitstop, more pitstops could be done. But counting for the passing of the criterion i just one pitstop in the middle third of the race. If you pit earlier, it does not count, if you pit too late, you get a penalty.

    I do not even ask for any kind of tyre change logic in the AI. Just time spent in the pits, to compensate for the loss of time by the pitting player.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2017
    Mike1304 likes this.
  17. GCCRacer

    GCCRacer Simracer

    My favorite spot to spin out when applying the throttle to the V6 Turbo F1 cars...

    So yes, even under current AC system making a pitstop has some challenge. And also some tactic... do I chase that guy down in front, do I get out of traffic (or into traffic...)? Not that I'd mind a manual pit limiter like in RF2.

    EDIT: Short of the "mandatory in the middle third" rule that Skybird descripes, it would already be enough if the AI recognizes their tires going to hell and gets a new set. That should be pretty simple logic really: State of tires must be known at all times by the engine, let's say 1 is fresh, 0 is dead, then AI checks if any of the four tires is at 0.2 and goes to pit. Or at 0.3 or whatever is appropriate.

    In RF2, I managed AI pitting only by setting tire wear multiplier. 3x for F1 Pirelli Tires gave me about half an hour race with a pitstop in the last ten minutes. With the added advantage that I too had to pit in about the same timeslot on the same tires (or either early and try to stretch second stint, or late, to avoid traffic).

    Tire wear already affects AI in Assetto. Just make them clever enough to grab a new set when the old one is cooked - can't be that hard, as they already recognize when they need more fuel and that's kind of the same computational thought process?
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2017
  18. GCCRacer

    GCCRacer Simracer

    In addition to my previous post... I realize that tire wear pitstops for AI can cause funny results like them pitting on penultimate lap. From my perspective I never blamed the RF2 devs for not making their system idiot-proof - I just had a bunch of tested race presets that worked.
     
  19. Skybird

    Skybird Alien

    During a three lap Nordschleife Endurance layout race with sports cars I recently noticed some AI cars pitting at the end of the first lap already, and others pitted at the end of the third and last lap instead of simply rolling over start-finish line on track and ending it. Its a quite messy state of things. One expects to see such things in Early Access or immediatly after release, not almost three years later. Thats why I have become a bit impatient.
     
  20. plaid

    plaid Alien

    AI's are sadly very difficult to get to a satisfying level it seems. And I fear the effort isn't necessary to attract casual racers and the more dedicated fans of the genre rather race online anyway - while its probably rare to see an endurance race for example.
    Pretty dissapointed by PCars2 AI, especially cause the endurance part is useless, they don't use obiviois opportunities and damage their car in attempts to overtake.While I don't expect Raceroom to succeed either, its afterall very difficult.

    All AI's show potential in certain areas, but usually have a few bigger problems or don't support some things
    Cross my fingers for GTR3 and AC2. Basic sprintraces on the same tracks you raced for years get can pretty old. But its maybe the price for being a offline focused person. AI's are maybe the ugly duckling noone wants to take care of.
     
  21. demetri

    demetri Hardcore Simmer

    Again, without a manual pit limiter and a penalty for pit lane speeding that we still don't have this all will be nearly useless. So they have to add that first and also define pit entry points where the speed limit is started to be enforced. The points where the auto limiter is activated now are often wrong, Silverstone is the most obvious example, there's also Mugello and probably other tracks too. But I have a feeling that we aren't getting it anyway.
     

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