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Please answer this question

Discussion in 'PlayStation 4 Discussions' started by Heath82, Jul 20, 2018.

  1. Heath82

    Heath82 Gamer

    considering i read the setup guide and I found it very useful, i set up some cars fixing understeers and oversteers concerning my way to drive, i still can’t get 2 things: camber and toe.
    About camber, the guide says that having negative front and rear values is always worth, besides that tyres get hot. Honestly, especially with street cars, I put maximum camber on front and rear without getting my tyres hot. So my question is: should i always put the max negative camber?
    About toe, the guide says to always keep it near 0, just increase positive rear toe to get more stability. So it’s better not to touch front toe on any case? Please help me to get about these 2 things
     

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  3. Maurice Jones

    Maurice Jones Rookie

    Evening fellow rookie, I'll share what I understand about camber and toe. Before I go into camber and toe, I'll talk about "Load" or "Weight Transfer" which effects camber and toe alike. Think of a car as a box that has series of weights placed in key areas in the front and rear of the car along with a contour weight in the center. As the box moves around weight is transferred from corner to corner, side to side and front to rear. Now these effects will change camber and toe which will effect how the car behaves. Camber effects how the car reacts under load in turns, braking and acceleration. The reason (-) negative camber is added to compensate for the (+) positive camber that is gained under load. While under load the tire will gain (+) camber which will give the largest contact patch for the maxim amount of grip, which also helps in maximizing braking. Having max (-) camber on the tires (tyres) will have them rolling on the inside edge. Having to much (-) camber is not good, you're reducing the contact patch under load. To understand how weight load works take a empty bottle and push it down into some water. Try it at an angle and straight down, you'll notice the difference. Now onto toe.

    Adjusting toe helps how the car enter a turn 'braking and turn in' , flows through a turn and comes out of the turn. Have to much or to little can hurt the performance of the car more than having to much (-) camber. The front toe helps the car in front end turning and braking. Rear toe helps with rear stability under acceleration and turning. When the front tires aren't under load the leading edge are pointing inward ( / + \ ) positive toe. When the rear wheel aren't under load the leading edge is pointing outward ( \ - / ) negative toe. Now pending on the load these angles will change. Under braking the front tires will gain (-) toe increasing the contact patch under braking and the rear gain (+) toe increasing the contact patch under acceleration. When the car is in a turn which ever side of the car as the most load on it those tires will gain (-) or (+) toe increasing the contact patch for the best grip. The inside tires normally stay as the are which helps the car rotate through the turn. Under braking front toe goes from ( / + \ ) to ( | + | ). Under acceleration the rear tires go from ( \ - / ) to ( | - | ). While turning the toe goes from 'front' left turn ( / + \ ) ( | + \ ) 'rear' ( \ - / ) ( | - \ ). And reverse for right turns.

    I hope this helps you out some. There are some graphs that you can search for to help you some more.
     
    Madam Hooch, Ace Pumpkin and jaxx_za like this.
  4. Heath82

    Heath82 Gamer

    Thank you so much for your answer. I already read about what camber and toe do. I watched a lot of videos too and the share point is: camber always negative and toe always positive (at least in the rear). Now, i begin my setup hitting the track a couple of times with default settings, then i change some values concerning the car understeers or oversteers and how the guides and videos advice, I follow this order: springs, ride height, dampers, anti-rolls, and differential. Because each one changes the car attitudes with opposite values on front and rear. But I really don’t know how to deal with camber and toe.
     
  5. Maurice Jones

    Maurice Jones Rookie

    If you like we can run some test and I can talk you through camber and toe. I'm in the states and my current time is 3:25 est. I'll post a time here later to let you know when I'll be on-line.
     
  6. Heath82

    Heath82 Gamer

    Thank you for your help but i’m working and I can’t be online.. it’s enough for me if you can explain how to deal with them both. I mean they aren’t parameters to set up to fix understeering or oversteering, It’s all about tyres temperature. Am i right?
     
  7. Tberg

    Tberg Alien

    It's not all about temparatures. Camber and toe has a lot to do about cornering and straight line stability. The easiest is to just read up on the subjects, preferably from more than one source. When you understand how it works, you experiment with it and practice, as it really depends on how you drive.
     
  8. Heath82

    Heath82 Gamer

    Trust me i read lots of source, and i know that toe affects stability especially on rear, but what i got is that it always gotta be close to 0, and just slightly negative on front if i need a better turn-in. But camber it’s all about temperature, i mean starting from default settings i just change it according tyres temperature..
     
  9. Heath82

    Heath82 Gamer

    tell me if i’ve been doing it right (i have ps4):
    Hit a track for 2 laps on default settings checking the tyres screen on the left.
    If i see some tyre is blue i increase pressure (only that tyre or both on front/rear? I mean the setup is always symmetrical or not?)
    Hit the track again till i get all tyres green, then i increase camber if inner temperature is lower than middle i decrease camber if outer is higher than middle.
    Hit the track again till i have inner temperature>middle>outer
    Then i try an hot lap if my car understeers or oversteers i change springs just 2 slides on front and rear. If it still understeers/oversteers i change other parameters (is it right or I should keep setting springs?) i set springs for first because in all guides i read it affects the car’s attitude the most. Is it a good way to set up?
     
  10. Maurice Jones

    Maurice Jones Rookie

    You're on the path of understanding camber and toe. Here's a link to "Safe is Fast" Basic chassis setup. Go through the video's, they'll help as well.
     
  11. Nao

    Nao Alien

    Not really, contact path does not change noticeably in size with camber, it's shape and load distribution does.
    Your bottle is a fallacy here because the deforming element that corresponds to how tyre works is actually water, while the bottle retains it's shape like the solid ground wheels run on. Now you will get different "contact path" sizes with different bottle angles because the pressure of the deforming element changes (depth of water), but real tyre has constant pressure. Better thought experiment would be a balloon and ground, no matter at what angle you push, the contact size will stay the same.

    Unfortunately if you delve deep into reading and understanding technical books and piece facts together, it will turn out that ~90% of the popular sources (even the more renowned) have glaring flaws and errors, and cannot be trusted fully.

    For example you can't apply the above mentioned toe theory in AC as the suspensions simulated are stiff and don't deform much, heck in some cases it's toe-in on front that will increase turn entry performance, and it would work like that IRL too.
    Running toe close to zero is again not that important for driving on track as impact of moderate toe angle (~up to like 1°) do not affect wear, heat or speed in a meaningful way, but changes handling significantly.

    Camber is all about temperature only because in real racing temperature is used to measure how close to optimum the tyres were running. Since there were no better tools for that the temperature distribution became this be all end all for tyres. But in reality camber does not heat up the tyres that much by itself. Since more camber provides more grip it stresses the tyre more generating more heat, just like softer compound will run hotter. Point being the causality: it's less "camber -> heat -> grip" and more "camber -> grip -> heat".
    Also camber changes how temperature is distributed and moves inside the tyre which can negatively impact wear - something that AC does not simulate well enough, thats why aggressive camber works better here.

    Bottom line: it's all very complicated and will change significantly based on car and situation, but you can be sure that for every guide out there it's possible to think a situation defying it's points. And to really be sure what's best for your car, you have to drive and experiment.
     
    Shachar and Tberg like this.
  12. Heath82

    Heath82 Gamer

    Guys i’m really freaking out!! I’ve been driving a mercedes gt3 in imola. The ****ing tyres are always blue!! I put negative camber at max on front and rear and the tyres don’t get hot at all!! Is it possible?!?
     
  13. Nao

    Nao Alien

    Yup seems about right. You want all the camber you can get on most street cars in AC since stock suspension does not allow to even get to optimum angles. On the other hand race cars have optimized camber already and the point of having the alignment tab is mostly to keep the toe and camber values in place as you change other car parameters like springs or ride height.

    Having too much camber is loosing you grip which reduces cornering speed which then reduces tyre temperatures further reducing grip. Thou even for racecars the setup limits are pretty tight so you are probably not far off. If tyres are blue it's more likely you are just using wrong tyre compound, or driving too slow, or have too high pressure - thou important note: while pressure is the most impactful setup option when it comes to temperature, generally you should be running with optimum pressures anyways unless tyres are way off their temp.
     
  14. Ace Pumpkin

    Ace Pumpkin Alien

    1. Always look at PSI, it’s much more important in AC than tire temps!
    2. Get this! CamberExtravaganza
    https://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/camber-extravaganza-cars-mod.20597/
     
  15. Ace Pumpkin

    Ace Pumpkin Alien

    CamberExtravaganza will show you how wrong all the experts like @Nao are...:)
     
  16. Maurice Jones

    Maurice Jones Rookie

    No reason to freak out. I just ran some laps on the different tire compounds and discovered that you may be setting up the car on hard tires. If that's the case, it will take a few laps for them to come up to operating temp pending on track temp and surface. With my driving style I was able to the tires to temp within these laps. Soft tires (6 to 8) Medium (8 to 14) Hard (10 to 17). This was done on the stock setup, which was very difficult to do. Due to the car moving around a lot.
     
  17. MrDeap

    MrDeap Hardcore Simmer

    He's on a Sony PlayStation 4.

    How much compression the suspension get, you get different camber value.


    The car also roll from the inertia.

    Lead to Lower negative camber require change
    Higher Spring Rate Value
    Higher ARB Value
    Higher Bump Value
    Higher Height
    Less Tires Grip(less cornering force)


    Lead to Higher negative camber requirement change
    Lower Spring Rate Value
    Lower ARB value
    Lower Bump Value
    Lower Height
    More Tires Grip(more cornering force)

    You should ask yourself, what setting between both would make the core retain temp & provide better traction?

    Strong ARB. Is the tire is flat on based on what it touches?
    [​IMG]

    No ARB, is the tire is flat on what it touches?
    [​IMG]

    What to do to retain the heat on the core temperature, so it will more likely to stay green when cornering hard?

    To be able to do that you need to heat all 3 section of the tire. There's 4 tires in total(4 core with 3 section) to consider... I suppose getting the best, would be making all 4 cores retain heat for less temp fluctuation...

    If you stiff by style & does like ARB picture... Will you be able to retain heat on all 4 cores.

    The whole moral here is it's all about getting traction. In my stubborn opinion, It's either you grip or have less grip which obviously lead to better lap time effortless.

    In race car you can make the negative camber super exaggerated that you may have too much negative camber.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
  18. Heath82

    Heath82 Gamer

    Hey hey guys you are making it even harder!! You all are expert and you know what setting up if you want the car runs some way!! I’m a novice, i just read some guides, the ones everyone advices, and I watched some viperconcept’s videos! The only things i got is: if car oversteers stiff front springs, dampers, height ride, anti roll bar; and soften the same things on rear! If the car understeers do the opposite. That’s it!! You are using a language totally unknown for me!! If someone wants to help me to understand how to setup a car properly knowing i’m a novice i’m gonna be happy.
     
    Tberg likes this.
  19. MrDeap

    MrDeap Hardcore Simmer

    The truth
    The easiest way to understand how to take advantage of the simulation, is you start from the very basic of physic, like newton law & the correlation of the tire heat, some suspension geometry. Although in the sim it can lead to confusion due to the learning curve, because you have to profit of the physic flaw within the game & if you don't, doesn't make sense or work(no sim are perfect & it is to be expected). That's why most people here will tell you to learn default, before even beginning to look into setup.

    Making a plausible realistic game is an achievement. Media does all sort of weird things.
     
    SidewayzShuffle// likes this.
  20. Heath82

    Heath82 Gamer

    Look, i started to read about setup not to be faster, but to get some car more drivable, like the cobra shelby or the ruff yellowbird. That’s why i’ve always seen the setup like something useful to “fix” some attitude of these cars
     
  21. MrDeap

    MrDeap Hardcore Simmer

    The most straight forward way is to simply & purposely reduce grip in either side to promote even more bad input at the result of slower lap time.

    If the car tend to be oversteery in your view, you intentionally reduce front grip
    -like leave toe to 0 just for the front from default
    -reduce front downforce

    If the car tend to be understeery in your view, you intentionally improve front grip
    -Leave toe closer to 0 for back from default
    -reduce rear downforce

    Because you intentionally grip, you reduce resistance on inertia, thus may use less negative camber on those specific point.
     

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