1. Do you need support for Assetto Corsa Competizione? Please use the proper forum below and ALWAYS zip and attach the WHOLE "Logs" folder in your c:\users\*youruser*\AppData\Local\AC2\Saved. The "AppData" folder is hidden by default, check "Hidden items" in your Windows view properties. If you report a crash, ALWAYS zip and attach the WHOLE "Crashes" folder in the same directory. Do not post "I have the same issue" in an existing thread with a game crash, always open your own thread. Do not PM developers and staff members for personal troubleshooting and support.
  2. As part of our continuous maintenance and improvements to Assetto Corsa Competizione we will be releasing small updates on a regular basis during the esports season which might not go through the usual announcement process detailing the changes until a later version update where these changes will be listed retrospectively.
  3. If ACC doesn't start with an error or the executable is missing, please add your entire Steam directory to the exceptions in your antivirus software, run a Steam integrity check or reinstall the game altogether. Make sure you add the User/Documents/Assetto Corsa Competizione folder to your antivirus/Defender exceptions and exclude it from any file sharing app (GDrive, OneDrive or Dropbox)! The Corsair iCue software is also known to conflict with Input Device initialization, if the game does not start up and you have such devices, please try disabling the iCue software and try again. [file:unknown] [line: 95] secure crt: invalid error is a sign of antivirus interference, while [Pak chunk signing mismatch on chunk] indicates a corrupted installation that requires game file verification.
  4. When reporting an issue with saved games, please always zip and attach your entire User/Documents/Assetto Corsa Competizione/Savegame folder, along with the logs and the crash folder (when reporting related to a crash).

Progressive system penalty

Discussion in 'Chit Chat Room' started by Darcy Callai Junior, Dec 29, 2014.

  1. jasjeet

    jasjeet Racer

    In quali any detected cuts invalidate the lap.

    In the race you would get a warning, but how many people tag-team in race, it's more of a hot lapping exploit. So I can't think of a scenario when this will cause any real issue.
     
  2. jasjeet

    jasjeet Racer

    Yes because the longevity of the game relies on MP. With 90% of races being ruined by wreckers we definatly need something implemented. The game is released and it's in Kunos' best interest to have a visible gameplay effect that really improves the game to retain interest and sell DLC.

    It's no point discussing it since the thread topic is to discuss a new penalty system so we will continue. I'm sure Kunos are reading everything.

    There's some very good ideas and implementations here to build upon.
     
  3. Stereo

    Stereo Alien

    The idea I had (not posted on this thread) is check the rate you cross AI splines... I'm assuming that when you're on the line itself they're exactly equal in length, the more you cut inside the corner the faster you cross them (eg. if a corner is 100m long and you cut the inside you travel 50m but traverse an equal number of splines as if you'd driven 100m) Seems to be a fairly natural extension of the data your delta app would already know.
     
    jasjeet likes this.
  4. The dedicated server has to have a penalty system that can be used in championships. The current system is horrible for this purpose. At least the information necessary for us to build an app. With this dedicated server should force the user to use certain apps.

    Alternatively then releases the spectator mode on dedicated server. So you can put race directors to care. The external pit mode (out of the garage) limits much the number of users on the server.
     
    MAUZERIS[LT] likes this.
  5. jasjeet

    jasjeet Racer

    No apps, it should be part of the game and configurable by the server gui.
     
    Ben Lee likes this.
  6. ChokDK

    ChokDK Hardcore Simmer

    @Michael Hornbuckle I don't understand your message at all.
    It's not up to us to do more than try to give inspiration.
    I think the last few posts have shown some serious interest - however no word from Stefano in reply, so yeah maybe it's not what he wants, but we're at least trying our best I guess.
     
  7. for monza could help more collidable objects, in real life they can't just cut the chicane and use the straight, without having to slow down,
     
  8. That is complete BS.

    Don't get me wrong, I am thrilled that Kunos is taking the time to try to make MP an overall better experience along with trying to implement features to make league users happy. But in the grand scheme of things, spending time working on features that less than 30% of the player base will use doesn't make much common sense when that time could be spent on things that everybody will benefit from. And less than 5% of the player base is involved in one or more leagues. Just something to keep in mind; and if your solution takes up several paragraphs it probably doesn't fall under the premise of 'keep it simple'.

    It seems that everybody wants a combination of iracing and GTR2, but sadly it sounds like it just isn't feasible.
     
    4yrton Senn4 likes this.
  9. esox71

    esox71 Alien

    "30% of the player base " Is it not 30% of people who have bought the game?
    And when did you get that figure?
    Sound like BS to me!
     
  10. jasjeet

    jasjeet Racer

    We appreciate you may not think it's simple/feasible. But maybe what you think is complex others see as relatively simple.

    If you are so concerned about other aspects create a new thread to discuss it rather than negatively impact this thread.

    Kunos are working on a new penalty system and I'm sure I speak for a lot of people that is something that they want.

    Also ever thought a lot of people don't even bother playing anymore due to the current state of MP? Remember who Kunos' main audience is (released on steam, a lot of 360 pad support etc).
     
    ears1991 and ChokDK like this.
  11. ChokDK

    ChokDK Hardcore Simmer

    @Michael Hornbuckle
    It is not "us" who choose to get the forum involved by solving the penalty system.
    There are other "issues" that are just as important for leagues (replay system, last racers need to finish all laps even if car 1 has finished 3 laps earlier etc.) and for "general interest" there is stuff like the "kurb bug", cars who almost fly by touching another car and other things.
    So yes there are other things of importantsness, but here we're trying our best with making the penalty system more brilliant.
    This is obviously not an easy task, else it was done already.
    You have also come up with some "solutions", and other people have tried their best as well.
    Now you're the sherif's lil' helper and telling everybody else that you know Kunos feel they're waisting their time.
    That's so taking energy out of this thread.
    Anyway this thread was just overtaken, so talking about other stuff is understandable - not everyone even knows Stefano even went in here or that he's just interested in suggestions including how-to.

    I think there has been some suggestions that would be nice to get some replies from Stefano already, but even he hasn't it doesn't equal that "Kunos are waisitng there time".
    Let the suggestions come until we hear "enough" from the head - not from the a** please.
    Thank you!
     
    F1Dave, DAwwie, ears1991 and 2 others like this.
  12. Sorry, quit reading at 'Sherif's lil helper'

    Anyways, I'm out. Good luck getting what you want.
     
  13. Luigi Gianni Vollaro

    Luigi Gianni Vollaro Hardcore Simmer

    In the short term, even for a few months I would say that it would be better than the 5 second rule we have now. They could then come back to this subject area with a clearer strategy later.
     
  14. Bkim

    Bkim Racer

    To be honest Michael, if the penalty system stays as it is now, the same penalty system is going to be a red marker for my MP experience (although i havent had a single 5 seconds penalty during a MP race). AC is the best sim i raced so far. Kunos is creating damn good realistic car behaviour on laster scanned tracks. . That should be combined with a realistic penalty system. Two or even three warnings, after that a drive through etc. See, driving within limits (two wheels within the white line) can be learned easily. Just a matter of practice.
    I would accept a invalid drive through because i made a mistake. I will not accept that i have to do pit repairs cause i smashed into a car that drove 50 because of a penalty. I also wont accept that i have to do a 5 seconds penalty because i had to evade a car that did 50 because of a drive through.
    At least there should be an option to use a realistic penalty system for the people that want to implement it in their race league.
     
    ChokDK and MAUZERIS[LT] like this.
  15. Minolin

    Minolin Staff Member KS Dev Team

    Coming back to yesterdays proposal.. I struggled very hard with a simple pyhton app (maybe there's a volunteer who is willing to help me starting out?), basically I failed to get display my world position for several hours.
    But: Reading other's apps code, this idea is definitifly possible. Having a look at the blue-flag app, it already gathers 80%* of the required information for a client sided app that rates cuts for all players, not only yourselfes. So this could be a system for either public servers with admins on (could kick based on the cut-rating) or beeing a penalty information for league races. Of course it would help to have a prototype for that to get a feeling for values and possibly finetuning the formula.

    * It does get the world positions of the other players/AI; I have hope that you can read the NormalisedSplinePosition of others as well.

    Of course there is still 2 problems:
    1. How to get the apex data (Spline+world position)
    2. How to get a comparable rating for different situations, aka. corners on the same track

    How to get apex data:
    I thought about the "it has to be generic and out-of-the-box" requirement. Came to the conclusion, this isn't right (at any cost). Why shouldn't this data not beeing added to the track (kunos-solution) or an client app (modder-solution)? Ok, now you shout "but Nords has 120 corners!" You even wouldn't need to define every single corner, just the ones very we smell a possible advantage by cutting. Thinking about Nords, there aren't that many. The first corner I could think about would be Adenauer Forst. Even if you include some of the Hatzenbach ones, you came to 10-20 apex definitions. This is quite managable. Pro: You can blank out corners where you fear accidential cuts more than intentional ones.
    So the quality of a track would gain the aspect of how good the cutting prevention is - not a problem in my eyes. Adding a few position information points is very low work compared to the project of creating a track in whole.

    Of course you could fallback creating these points by smoothing/parsing a AI line, but I don't think this would be efficient (for the creator).

    Handle different corners/situations:
    This can be done by a little change in the formula, just weight the length of the apex-distance by a factor. This could be a generic one depending on the corner's radius, or just add them manually as spoken before. So a possible forumla could be
    (weight * distance)² * speed = cut_rating
    Again, if this weight is defined by the track creator, you have a good tweaking point for handling exception corners like



    Let me finish with a recap (regarding this rating concept) of some very good points out of this discussion:
    I misslike server-forced apps (because they lead to server-pushed apps which leads to security nightmares). If we had an client app that can give us a cut rating for all players, wouldn't that be enough for a race/league admin? As I understand leagues, you wouldn't even need a technical answer to cuts during the race? You could give point penalties based on a cut rating?

    1) + 2) Might be solved by the progressive character of this rating.. the more, when it's just a display value which might lead to human decisions rather than automatic actions
    3) is not addressed by my approach
    4) is "what do you do with the cutting information" and not my angle. Beeing able to chose between different options would be nice
    5) +6) isn't the topic (and technically very very hard to implement fair)

    Again, a progressive character should be part of the solution. It's not "3 cuts", but "1 very serious cut" vs. "3 minor cuts".

    This isn't as good as it felt yesterday. It's a horrible imagination to drive the one lap of your live; you would set a new WR, and accidentially the penalty kicks in.. On the other side I hope for races with lesser grip conditions, which would widen the possible corridor of cuts.
     
    ChokDK likes this.
  16. ears1991

    ears1991 Alien

    is there really anywhere on nordschleife you could gain an advantage by cutting (and not end up in an armco?)
     
  17. Romain F

    Romain F Rookie

    If possible, it's better to have a real time penalty such as a drive through, rather than points removed or time added at the end of the race. First, because it's more realistic, but also because it impacts the race itself (the car that gets a drive through penalty doesn't block its opponents further...).

    BUT

    Even when penalties are given after the race, racers know they will get penalties if they cut. Thus, they hardly cut. If league admins can get a good replay that covers all the race length, and a list of all cut/offroad occurrences (could be as simple as in a text file), that's already something. Such a system, associated with Wally's plugin, would be good enough i think. Of course any further tweak is welcome, but even in the "state of the art" such a system would be far more suitable to league racing than the 5 seconds throttle cut.

    The ingame penalty system should be tolerant: it's easier for a league admin to add a penalty after the race, than to remove a penalty the game already gave. According to my tests, Wally's plugin looks pretty compliant to this definition.

    Having complete replay files (even for long races) is also quite important for leagues even if a fully automatic solution is found for cuts. Indeed, contacts/accidents investigations can hardly be done without human brain (at least at league level). In another sim, i used to assess 90 minutes replays and the quality was good enough for our use. AC's replays look far bigger at equivalent race length, so replays availability is the biggest issue imo, atm.

    Blue and Yellow flags should at least be shown. Even if the game doesn't apply automatic penalties in case of abusive blocking and/or overtaking under yellow flags, the human brain can do it. But we can only rely on the game to show them in good time.

    Of course, i don't speak in the name of all leagues.

    For public servers, maybe a little introduction to motor racing rules could be shown at the first connexion, and keep available after through F1 key? It wouldn't stop cheaters and wreckers, but it would make genuine rookies aware of the rules and uses, which is already something... Possible tweak: enabling the server admins to adapt the rules. Some want realistic rules, some want them tolerant, other expect faulty drivers to wait victims in case of collisions... Then the message would show when the player joins a specific server. A little off topic maybe...
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2015
    ears1991 and ChokDK like this.
  18. ChokDK

    ChokDK Hardcore Simmer

    Meanwhile: what if Kunos introduced "last lap for all when first car has finished the race" (a highly wanted league thing btw)?
    Then a message showing "5 sec penalty for corner cuts this lap" could show, and the good ol' rule wasn't waisted coding either.
     
    MAUZERIS[LT] likes this.
  19. Bkim

    Bkim Racer

    Im just a simple guy without any PC language programming knowledge. While i read through this forum i read the following important things:

    - it stills open up the question of what to do if you cut on the last lap? = total race time will be adjusted minus drive through. They already had two premature warnings. Plenty of time to adapt.
    - Not only that, what happens if you don't do the drivetru? = Drivetru should be within X laps. No drivetruy means stop & go of X seconds. No Stop & Go = black flag. Return to pits and disqualified.
    - What if you speed up in the pitlane during the drivetru? = Stop & Go

    - At the end of the day.. it's all down to find out a way to differentiate between intentional cut and mistakes.. = Im afraid that is not prgrammable. But premature warnings (two or three) before a drivetru or stop & go should be enough to warn people of their mistakes.
    - .. but I honestly won't be able to sleep at night thinking a mistake is turning into a drive thru in AC.= Not nessecary if people are warned beforehand. Racing within limits can be learned! It takes practice.

    Those rules should be an option within the game. Not a fixed feature. I always say that options make the difference between a powerful PC title and a console game (dont kill me).

    But in the end...yep, this is my peronal preference as im DYING to start the league and championships on different sites. But before i do i want a proper penalty system that is clear for everybody participating in the races.

    Bee
     
    Tony74, Hagen and MAUZERIS[LT] like this.
  20. ears1991

    ears1991 Alien

    stefano has said that he doesnt want to do warnings because if you can cut chicanes 2 times and get away with it, the cheaters will (at least for public). warnings for pushing track limits would be OK though imo. so that alone suggests separate systems are needed for public and league, where warning based systems would work fine.

    i think it is programmable to differentiate intentional cuts and mistakes, as described in some of my earlier posts in this thread. short version: cuts only really happen on chicanes, otherwise there is no advantage to be gained because of having to go over kerbs, through grass to shave a bit of a corner off, not worth it. so, chicanes would need to have some invisible gate on the apex of the chicane, and then if that isnt passed through, then the player is told to slow down to x speed before rejoining the track, if they dont, drive thru or w.e. only requires some minor modification on tracks with chicanes (got to be fewer than 10 chicanes total in all AC tracks)
     
    Bkim and MAUZERIS[LT] like this.
Similar Threads
Forum Title Date
ACC Physics Progressive understeering on exit while on throttle Sep 23, 2018
Steering wheels discussions braking technique questions progressive vs regressive Jan 4, 2017
Suggestions Progressive dirt layer based on laps completed? Dec 21, 2016
Physics modding - Cars & Tyres How can i understand "PROGRESSIVE_SPRING_RATE"? Feb 24, 2016
Physics Bugs & Issues Progressive spring rates not working anymore (observation) Sep 2, 2015
Graphics and Models/Tracks Bugs & Issues No progressive dirt overlay on cars in saved replays Aug 8, 2015
Physics Bugs & Issues Progressive braking to sensitive with abs? Aug 27, 2014
ACC Tools Online League Management System & Livetiming for ACC ?? Jun 30, 2023
ACC Troubleshooting ACC Causing System Restart in the Menus [HW instability] Apr 25, 2023
General modding discussion AC2 dedicated server API for competition systems Apr 16, 2023
ACC Troubleshooting Rating System down? Feb 21, 2023
ACC Troubleshooting Fatal error occurs at any time during the race [multiple failure points - system instability] Oct 8, 2022
ACC Troubleshooting Crash [multiple failure points - system instability] Oct 5, 2022
ACC Troubleshooting Fatal Error [multiple failure points - system instability] Aug 21, 2022
ACC Tools SimRacing Management System Jul 16, 2022

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice