Project CARS 2

Ok i will try it, thx.

Does that necessarly mean that it Feels real?

 

I don't care about it feeling REAL.... I care about it being informative like the other games.

 

"Reality" is over-rated!

Seriously though, I'm a firm believer in "more is better" where FFB-detail is concerned because it's quite easy to remove detail if realism is the primary goal. Immersion is what I crave and more detail supports that goal in Sim-racing in my case. There are also other PC2 issues that are immersion-breakers for me so it's not the FFB alone that diminishes the appeal of the title.

The problem I have with PC2 FFB isn't a lack of detail but, a lack of a cohesive and consistent FFB among the content requiring constant tweaks and adjustments only to conclude that the physics and/or tire-model cannot communicate the same information I get from other titles near the edge of adhesion. Some among SMS have suggested such effects are a sort of crutch in Sim-racing intended to support the false belief that the individual is actually a super-talented race-car driver. I don't share the same philosophy in Sim-racing car behavior but, to each their own and it's a great luxury for us to have the gift of choice in these times.

For those that enjoy PC2, more power to you. Just because I don't share the same experience doesn't mean I wish the title didn't exist or that those that play it, like it or support it go away. Just as we can tune the FFB to our personal preferences, so can we choose what we read and believe in this and other forums. We don't have to be hostile toward others in order to support our favorite things; that too, is a personal choice.

 

While I appreciate you wanting consistent FFB, you only have to read car road tests to realise that cars in reality provide different levels of feedback and so inconsistent FFB does not necessarily indicate a flaw in the physics.

 

No ones saying its a flaw in the physics. We are restriced to no inner gyro, seat of the pants feel or any of that. We have cheap weak wheels that need informative FFB that is amplified in a way that our primitive wheels can convey what the car is doing. FFB needs to be at similar levels across all content like Kunos does, run it through a multiplier so we aren't constantly fiddling, it's such a stupid thing to say, well this roadrcar has 2nm of torque irl and this Indycar has 30nm so we'll leave the FFB signal as they are.

With our low powered wheels all that does is makes the Indycar super heavy and clip, and the road car so light we can't feel anything. Its stupid, both should be equalised be it + or - to the level of consumer wheels.

I really want to play and ENJOY PC2 but no one will give me their awesome FFB settings that make PC2 have the best FFB like Slowbloke mentioned.

 

Just read some car road tests magazines, keep doing it 30 minutes a day untill FFB feelings improves.
It's that simple.

 

But how does that makes sense from an overall title standpoint? It shouldn't be some kind of matching game. And if it's going to be, then telling people which combos are the best would be nice, so people can ignore the mismatches.

 

That's apples to oranges. Yes, RL cars produce different levels of feedback and detail. But that shouldn't dictate that you have to change the FFB from car to car. Other than the in-car Gain, I don't adjust globals per car in any other sim I own. But, IDK... some people think PCars2 is the most advanced sim on the market, so maybe this is forward thinking future-proofing.

Also, the simple truth is... As odd as it is to have to do, the per-car tweaking probably wouldn't even be a big deal if SMS has simply kept the per-car FFB saves like they had in PCars1. But, unfortunately, they heard people complain about that, and removed it without actually understanding the frustration behind the complaint. In Pcars1, per car saves made no sense, because the FFB settings could be used in all cars. Having it saved per car, was a nuisance, because you'd have to update all cars every time you made a chance to your settings. But now in PCars2, the FFB is terribly inconsistent between cars, and a per-car save would be a major convenience. But... SMS

 

i think we all agree it is not perfect and indeed the biggest frustration I have is the inconsistency but patch after patch it gets better and current tyre behaviour is the best its been in PC2....

In an ideal world it should be consistent across cars... which btw is not the case for AC either - however I agree when its bad in PC2 its really not nice... but because there is so much that still is great (for me) its still the title I load up regardless of having R3E, AC, Dirt Rally and RF2 installed.

Im currently between houses with my rig in storage so cannot give a full detailed list of all car and track combos I think are great (frankly I wouldnt go to those lengths anyway)... however from memory with CSW v2.5 / CSP v3 in VR.....

Tracks (I tend to base my preference on track information, sensation of bite in corners etc..)

Oulton Park, Donnington Park, Brands Hatch, Snetterton, Cadwell Park, Knockhill, Algarve, Fuji, Watkins Glen, CoTA, Long Beach, Red Bull Ring, Silverstone Classic, Rouen, Bannochbrae, Daytona non oval, Bathurst.

Le Mans 1971 is absolutely breathtaking imo - was not excited for going straight a lot but its so damned good in the old cars...

Tracks I dislike because of lack of sensation of tyre adhesion... Ruapuna (was great in PC1 - is horrible here), Indy road - yuch.. FFB feels terribad imo - no detailed information coming from track on some corners... especially last corner. Brno, Road America, Spa

Sugo track layout I enjoy but the raod feel is bad in some cars and fun in (not so many) others (ie Panoz Esperante with tone turned up and FX to 100)
Le Mans modern version is nice in 95% of cases but I feel bleh road adhesion FFB in the 2 kinks on the main back straight (Ralentisseur 1 & 2) - its like the FFB for those sections has no road feel data as the rest of the track....


Indy car - feels great on numerous tracks - sublime on Long Beach
Ferrari SP333 - so very nice
Bentley LMP900 - just amazing
LMP2 & LMP3 in general
LMP3 around Brands Hatch/Oulton park etc.. volume 40 tone 60 starting point
Formula Renault
Formula Rookie around Oulton Park
BMW M1
Capri Zakspeed
The 2 group 6 cars - just yummie
Most of the Group C cars
Ferrari 512S/M are simply gorgeous to drive.
The 917LH is a boat around corners but so so fast...
The 3 LMP1 2016 are a joy to drive as well around most of the usual WEC type tracks
McLaren f1 GTR
Panoz Esperante
GTE - Corvette / Porsche
GT3 - Aston / Z4 / Cadillac / Ginetta / Porsche
GT4 Aston / Ginetta / X-Bow / Cayman (Cayman can be tricky on some tracks)
Ginetta G40 GT5 / G57
Renault Clio Cup
(Last 2 on british tracks especially knockhill lot of fun)

Ferrari 330 / 365 / 288 GTO (Great fun on Bannochbrae)
McLaren 570
Radical RXC
Caterham 7 / SP300 (Knockhill or smaller tracks)
Radical SR3
Ford Falcon on Bathurst (also the group C's and LMP900 nice on Bathurst as are bunch of other cars)

Im sure I forgot some but generally pick and choose with above to get a feel for combos you personally enjoy - but that is what I tend to stick to...

The Lambos generally not so good - and a couple feel terrible FFB wise.

@kraM1t - My FFB is simple... Raw 100/50/50/50 and have the Volume and Tone mapped. More often than not Im ok with the default but sometimes due to clipping I drop Volume as needed to avoid clipping. I may also tend to opt for 4o Volume / 60 Tone for certain cars to get more of the side tyre bite feel... If I cant get a car to dial in I look at Jack Spades recommendations for his files and use the standard as a starting point and it quickly tells me if FFB too weak (Volume) or I dont get that lovely tyre flex feel in corners in which case pump up tone and reduce volume if clipping / too strong feel.

Dont be on the wrong tyre or it could quickly feel bad - too cold for Hard feels bleh... too hot for softs likewise.

Ultimately each rig may feel different and every has their own preferences for FFB but the above combox and settings make me smile

If you do opt for Jack Spades - lots of people swear by them but I found the Raw now is more to my liking. If I ever do use it though I tone down the volume section in the file as its way too heavy for the CSW v2.5 for me.

ie
(output (* 2.4 volume output))
change to
(output (* 2.1 volume output))

For a starting point - youre mileage will vary.

 

I'll give some of those a try thanks

 

Even in RL your starting to lose the tire on road feel more with the modern sport cars (the higher you go) with magnetic ride control and electric assist steering etc. However, most provide a "sport mode" which stiffens it up a bit, but still...So, I can see where sim games can have an edge by enhancing this FFB feel (tire to road) so we feel we are at one with the car more. Otherwise, it starts to feel like we are all just driving F1 2017 all the time.

 

its weird because this is the opposite for me, indycar is super light and road cars have heavy steering.

 

I'm not saying the FFB in other sims is equal across the board. There are just less inconsistencies than PCars, and the degree of variance with those inconsistencies is usually smaller. Also, often of the variance you see with other sims is due to extended development, where earlier released cars don't quite mesh as well with the new tire models released months or years later. That's different than, releasing a garage that, from day one, was full of inconsistent FFB. And, as I mentioned in another comment, the real problem is the lack of per-car FFB settings. If SMS had included that, I think there'd be less concern for the inconsistency.

Thanks for the list. I actually meant, SMS should have provided one...LOL. I agree with those tracks. The cars are where people diverge. I prefer modern race cars and only drive the classic once in a moon or for MP. Open wheel is a favorite, which basically leaves me wanting in PCars, because the open wheelers are just a pathetic experience. I like the way the Porsche GT3 handles, but like so many cars in that title, the sound is awful. Not all cars are as bad as the Porsche, but compared to other sims, it sounds like some generic engine sounds. And the RSR isn't much better. I don't care for the sound at all in PCars, and I'm starting to realize that this is a bigger factor in my overall experience with the title than I thought. With SimCommander, I've gotten the FFB to a point that I can deal with. It takes me a few laps, but then it settle into the feel and I'm fine now. But a race or two later, I'm still feeling a little blah about the overall experience. It's obviously not the graphics, and the AI has improved since I reinstalled the game. They aren't great, but they aren't the experience kill they were before. There's just something else missing, and I think it's the sound. It's just not very good, IMO and too many cars sounds similar or like they are using a generic sound file.

I like quite a few cars on your list, especially the Ferrari 333. I've been driving that one with paddles, waiting on an adapter for my Fanatec shifter. That's coming today, so this week, I'll be able to start driving sequentials like I should. I don't think I've tried the LMP1 and LMP2 class since upgrading my wheel. I'll give those a shot again, but I kind of remember the experience being a little less fun than it is in other sims.

IDK...overall, since getting my Accuforce, the game is more enjoyable. But I know that's because I'm only using about 30-40% of the game's FFB. The rest is coming from SimCommander using the game's telemetry data. If it wasn't for that, PCars would basically be on the shelf like it was before the upgrade, when I'd dust it off every few months, take it for spin, and think... "Nope, still don't like it."

The thing with PCars is, compared to other sims, there's a lot of good stuff/feel in the FFB that other titles don't provide, but these additions/enhancements seem to have come at the expense of some of the more basic FFB dynamics. The lack of feeling of the tires scrubbing the road has plagued PCars since the first version. It's better in PCars2, but still not great. IMO that's why your best track is list is predominately textured/rough surface tracks. Smooth tracks should also be enjoyable, and they are, in other sims.

 

i guess for a company to say these combos are great...but these are not... is probably not the best marketing

The smooth tracks having generally bad feel (for me) for sure is my biggest gripe with the game as it was in PCars 1..... just means I do not enjoy approaching half the content. I readily admit that it may be my lack of knowledge of what to do setup wise... for instance after patch 5 LMP2 was horrific on Donnington... then someone recommended use softs and it was great again. So now I do always swap to softs if I get that feeling but if the track temps are 35c + they dont last long...

Funnily enough Silverstone can feel meh... but it can also feel good now - Im happy chucking the LMP1 2016 around there as much as I am with AC (with the right tyres).

Nice one on the Accuforce. Was very tempted when they were on sale but decided to wait to see what the Fanatec DD will be like.

I guess Im not a major audiophile when it comes to the sounds - the engines for the most part are ok with me (love the Esperante) - some not so much... I think they did a great job on the audio cues of the tyre slip - vs for instance the non stop screeching of GT - stopped playing that years ago as I just cannot stomach that sound for 50% of the lap. With VR I know exactly which tyre is warning me and it definitely helps a lot dancing on the limit (not that Im any good at it - its just enjoyable being able to balance the car there vs PC1 if you went over you were not going to recover 95% of the time )

The clunk of the gear changes though in some cars are really grating... to the point where I rename Steam\SteamApps\common\Project CARS 2\Audio\Cars\GearChange folder... to avoid them.

In terms of that blah feeling after a few laps - I get that in R3E and RF2 quickly - I just dont feel immersed... I guess I place fair importance on the immersion which is a combo of a bunch of factors but just overall PC seems to nail that best for me as a combination of all aspects.

We will just have to see what they manage with PC3 although I suspect that may be a few years down the line... In the meantime - I can easily see me driving PC2 for a couple more years and then there is also ACC which looks very promising... GTR3 - sounds great but to me that sounds like it will likely never see the light of day - certainly not in 2018...

 

I agree with the these points but, I would add that SMS simply doesn't value the same FFB and car-handling features of the top sim's in the same way some of us do based on some of the developers comments regarding competing sim's. At some point, there is a fundamental difference in the design philosophy that just doesn't work the same. I'm not convinced that changes to FFB are going to solve those.

 

I'm sure different players have varying requirements for greater immersion. The smooth tracks tend to be far more obvious (especially in RaceRoom) for those that have tactile and/or motion rigs; the sterile surface can really detract from the overall experience. Surface detail is a very important factor in my choice of tracks in any title and I tend to seek out those with unique and challenging terrain, elevation and bump details; if they are based on LS data, all the better.

Sounds are vitally important for high immersion in my case and PC2 has some good ones but, quite a few dud's too. The shifter sound does get old really fast. It all leads me to question if Greg is involved in the game-audio any longer (?); if not, that's a shame as he does very good work.

 

I've been spending a bit of time in pcars 2 since the last update.
Driving in wet is much improved, puddles are much better now.
Regarding ffb, i have spent a long time tuning it & have the ffb in a good place but there are still some cars that feel whack & overall its inconsistent on some tracks. Driving on a track like the nords in comparison to AC you can feel its shortcomings. The ffb in any follow up to this game shoulds be number one priority, should have been the case for pcars 1 as well.
The ai sadly is still way off, on some tracks im easily beating 120 in the rain. This bug has been noted but how long till a fix?? There are also some weird although less serious bugs around the racing conditions settings.
I have some graphical issues with z fighting but i have yet to see anyone else complain about it.
All that aside when it's good it is good, I tend to gravitate to this game for racing more than the other sims for whatever reason i just think its a mostly enjoyable game. The rain is over the top but i do feel like i'm in a downpour in VR its immersive with the day to night transition. I wonder if they will ever get the ai right, the way they behave is fine just the difficulty is inconsistent.

 

I agree. And I think that's definitely the case with PCars. There's a lot going on in the FFB range that I like, things I can't feel in any other sim. It's just that this direction, although great in some ways, seems to have come at the expense of something I really need. Funny thing is, I didn't even realize I needed it until it was gone. Again, it's much less of a problem in PCars2 than it was in PCars1. And I think the settings in SimCommander are helping me dial in something more to my liking.

 

I was waiting on Fanatec, too. But I had been a step away from buying and AF when Fanatec first confirmed their DD was in the works. Then, after the official announcement, with a late 2017 launch, I never thought I'd be sitting here, mid-2018, still waiting on a release date...LOL

Anyway, I'm glad I went the AF route, though. The SimCommander software can really transform a title's native FFB. And with the QR adapter I bought, I can still use all my Fanatec rims without any modifications.

 

Game is part of the summer sale, unfortunately it still exceeds the budget I'd be willing to spend:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/378860/Project_CARS_2/