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Shouldn't there be some sort of punishment (tyre clipping through the model)

Discussion in 'Chit Chat Room' started by 7TeeNein, Jun 23, 2016.

  1. 7TeeNein

    7TeeNein Racer

    I mean, if you look at the fast drivers, most sets (if not all) are reduced to softest springs and lowest height, but without any drawbacks. Call me nitpicky, but i think there should be some sort of disadvantage. If you watch your setup to be realistic, you're basically already not competitive anymore.
     
    Specht77, Collin, Koen and 2 others like this.

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  3. AccAkut

    AccAkut Alien

    You shoudl post this in the bug subforum instead, these cars bum stops ned to be tweaked. Its not like the game "feels" the tire is intersecting the car model.
     
    Epistolarius and ZethGAF like this.
  4. Nao

    Nao Alien

    Check your placebo levels :p. On most cars that have no rules for minimum rideheight going soft springs and lower ride height means slower not faster. The disadvantages are there, it's just that the faster drivers are... faster (and stubborn to change old setup habits), plus the negatives often suit faster drivers style so it doesn't slow them down as much.

    Also, i'm not 100% sure if the visual representation is fully correct, AC for several reasons (like chassis flex, limited dynamic numbers in physics etc.) might have effectively less stiff bumpstops which would generate good physics response while looking bad (wheel clipping), so i'd not take the visuals too seriously.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2016
  5. Berniyh

    Berniyh Alien

    Of course there are drawbacks to using the lowest height. The car can behave much more nervous on curbs and in some situation you seriously lose speed.
     
  6. magzire

    magzire Alien

    Also top speed
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2016
  7. liakjim

    liakjim Alien

    Chassis flex is not supported in AC. I asked Stefano more than once ( Aris is trying to semi-simulating this by adjusting slightly the dampers ).

    Στάλθηκε από το m2 note μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk
     
    Deleted member 18758 and eXo like this.
  8. martcerv

    martcerv Alien

    Fast driver makes a crappy setup and is still relatively fast in it. The setup is not necessarily that good and actually hurting them but then all the sheep download this setup and assume it must be good. ;)
     
    Ace Pumpkin likes this.
  9. Well... Talking to many people, soft setups are more often than not much faster on AC.
     
  10. 7TeeNein

    7TeeNein Racer

    Not a placebo though. By using those, im becoming one of the fast drivers gaining easily 1sec, although im usually not. It might not apply to all cars, but in the MX5 on zandfoort or the quite nervous f1 gtr, it means the car is much more planted cause the spring doesn't shoot it up as much and it works quite well.

    I dont see how it means slower top speed either, cause i've driven against people with those setups (thats where the screeny comes from), and they make a very good step on the straight.
     
  11. Berniyh

    Berniyh Alien

    You'll see it if you understand the difference between "it can happen" and "it will happen".
     
  12. Turk

    Turk Alien

    The physics model and the visuals don't always meet up at the extremities. I assume physics trumps visuals in any sim. But if it is the case that in the real world the tyre would be hitting the inside of the tyre well then there should be consequences in game too. It's never been an issue for me but if it'll hurts the alien lap times I'm all for it. :p
     
  13. DuckeyTapey

    DuckeyTapey Hardcore Simmer

    If those screenshots are showing other drivers in multiplayer, then you can't trust them in any way. Wheel position will just be approximated or interpolated or whatever. First you would need to test it in singleplayer and watch it in highest quality replay or drive and watch it live from an outside view or maybe use telemetry, before you can say anything about wheels clipping through the car body.
     
  14. PhilS13

    PhilS13 Alien

    Who would've thought soft springs work well on a bumpy track like Zandvoort ?:p

    The softest springs on the Mazda cup is 2.0 Hz Front 2.8 Hz Rear which is still quite stiff. You'd need to go much softer to start feeling the disadvantage of going too soft imo.
     
    martcerv, Mogster, Nao and 1 other person like this.
  15. Nao

    Nao Alien

    You as a driver might benefit more from the setup, but the car's maximum performance is lower if you run minimum ride height with soft springs for MX5 for example. Lower RH = lower roll center = car rolls more = less grip from cambers = ARB works harder increasing the weight transfer on the stiffer end.
    I don't have much time to race/drive atm so i might be out of the loop on MX5, but last time i drove it (0.6% off rsr WR on Brands GP) using softer springs, anything lower than the default 10mm on front and rear was a time loss.
    MX5 is a bit of a strange one with how camber works on that car so it does not suffer that much, but most other road or track toys (without RH rules) can suffer quite noticeably from going too low.

    Anyways, unless you are in the "below 1% off WR's" you probably gain more speed from lowered car being a bit more loose, as dropping both front and rear down to minimum generally gives oversteery characteristic (for AC setup ranges), rather than it being a case of having "more grip".

    Top speed is probably very car dependent, and for flat underbody with diffuser cars, higher speed trap speeds are more down to downforce than reduced drag from lower RH... i guess it could help some IRL cars that have poor base aerodynamics (designed for comfort, space etc.) but i doubt a proper sport/track car would benefit enough top speed for it to be worth it. (at least i think in AC it does not do much unless it's a proper racecar)
    _________
    @liakjim Yep that was my point: no chassis flex = more wheel clipping.
     
    liakjim likes this.
  16. ouvert

    ouvert Alien

    yep .. AC just needs sparks effect to let them know they`re doing it wrong :)
     
    Specht77 likes this.
  17. Bas B

    Bas B Racer

    Hmm so that is how some guys suddenly manage to gain full second to 1.5 seconds. Later this evening i will give it a try and see if it indeed works to simply put springs to minimum and adjust height so you barely reach the minimum ride height required.
     
  18. Nao

    Nao Alien

    In almost all cases in AC a default setup that is lowered will give more grip, but for "non intuitive" reasons - the main contributor to increased grip is not lower center of mass but increased negative cambers which are set conservatively by default. Softer springs will have the same effect on cambers, plus as William mentioned earlier, in general soft setups work betters in AC... (unless it's a mod track with flat physics mesh, in which case welding the suspension would be fastest).
    And in the end a fast driver will be able to use default set with one or two changes fitting the track and be 0.5s or less off the front, because he can exploit the car's strong points without relaying on overly loose setup for guidance to reach the grip limits.

    Imho, it's better to just soften step by step keeping wheel geometry and grip balance the same with camber/toe changes and ARB's and look for a moment the car is starting to loose it. and then just tweak cambers/ARBs to fit own driving style. Just changing spring rate and ride height is like taking all suspension and aerodynamic values and rolling the dice on them. Because default sets are conservative, what rolls will most likely be faster.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2016
    Nahkamarakatti likes this.
  19. Bas B

    Bas B Racer

    I did not have much success first testing with lower/softer ride hide resulted in collisions with the track. Seen this before.
    Maybe try something else, go straight to lowest settings of springs and increasing ride height, so you end up with extreme low ride height at speed due to downforce and thus riding the bumpers for 60+% of the track..... I'll try that when i have the time for it.
     
  20. Bas B

    Bas B Racer

    Retested at SPA with corvette gt2
    ended up with these changes
    suspension springs: lowest possible setting
    packers all: lowest possible
    adjusted ride height to minimum allowed (55 mm)
    front travel range: 56
    rear travel range: 71
    front camber: 0.2 less negative(setting) than my realistic setup
    rear wing: 2 (one less than realistic setup)
    Left all other options of my rather "ok" 8 lap race set alone

    result: about 0.3 sec faster opening laps, consistently faster and super, super easy corner exits, higher topspeeds. So by getting more familiar with the setup i should be able to squeeze another 0.2 to 0.3 tents out of it, the laps were not perfect.
    Riding packers seem to be very grippy
    car horizontal seem to give more downforce than rear little bit higher
    no penalty at all for "hanging" into the packers in corners. Decreasing travel range can really improve grip in fast corners. don't get me wrong; in very fast corners with realistic spring settings, springs are so much compressed by high force, getting some light hits on the packers is usually ok. But in AC it seems you can use them as part of your normal suspension system instead of primarily a measure to prevent too much bottoming out.

    main problem is the huge understeer in the fast double lefthander which keeps me from going consistently into 2:16.5 with this fake setup. I think if i start testing with all the other suspension settings i would not be surprised to acquire a race pace of 2:15.xx for 5 laps in a row on softs on 8 lap fuel load; at 24 celcius ambient, track 32 celcius.

    So i guess there is a real point to this topic? I dont think these are realistic settings with even less than realistic results?:confused::eek::oops:o_Oo_O

    Total time spent testing: exactly 60 minutes(after 60 minutes AC has an auto-cut on the forcefeedback :) which stopped any further testing in the sessions).
     
  21. PhilS13

    PhilS13 Alien

    110 default springs not touching the packers vs 120 (70 springs+50 packers) riding the packers all the time and this means softer is better ?

    "Car horizontal has more DF" is only the diffuser working better than at default rear height.

    Using the packers as part of the normal travel range trick is used in real life and can work. Not only in AC. They use helper springs instead of rubber bumpers when doing it.

    Huge understeer is the fast corners is the front splitter too low.

    I see more a bunch of misunderstadings leading to a bad conclusion but if you wanna not see that and keep trying to find laptime on lowest softest everything have fun with it!
     
    Nao likes this.

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