Feedback from real-life drivers - discussion

yep, i didn't talk about the fear factor, but it's also much higher on a motorbike
in flight simulators also G-forces are hard but there are more problems even. you can't see the distances in 2D, and looking out of the cockpit is hard as you move your "head" with buttons or D-pad. it can be solved with a VR-headset but i never tested it...

 

I´d give it a chance...


+ VR is needed.

 

I can imagine what that costs?

 

sorry my wheel price like 20 g27 and in other sims its most best FFB feeling!

 

lol if it's easy to drive for you its sound unrealistic!No comments!

 

If you think you are impressing anybody, you are not, you missed the whole point of my post.

 

20 times the price of a G27? The G27 sold for $400 (retail). So, 20x would be $8000.

What wheel cost that much?

 

You should , when you have a chance, although VR introduce issues that are not there with 2D screens, VR also bring us somehow closer to real with the ability to look around and outstanding 3D.
Once past the initial adaptation stage, it is the best thing that happened to car driving simulators since FFB wheels.

 

Hi everyone, it's Josh here. Thanks to those who have reached out to me!

I enjoyed reading through some comments here and I agree I think it's time to buy the game again and give it another shot.

Thanks to Kondor and others for writing to me! I'll stay in touch with you guys on this thread. ACC is downloading as we speak.

Just a quick one regarding my hardware - you're right in the fact I don't have a direct drive wheel. I use a pretty old Logitech G27 on a GT Omega sim rig. Not the best - but still a decent platform. I'll let you know my thoughts later on

 

I'll be in touch with my new review shortly

Regards,

Josh No Name

 

This is fantastic news! Please give us your true opinion. Feedback from a guy who actually drove the in-game car is priceless to a lot of us.

Can't speak for anyone else, but I get kinda tired of reading the opinions of "drivers" whose only competition experience consists of occasionally hurrying to work in their SUV

 

At the end of the day we shouldn't be asking drivers, we should be asking the engineers and have them compare the sim to IRL to see how well the model holds true. Drivers do have a lot of good feedback but they often lie (fooled by what they think they are feeling).

 

Seriously? He's lying? Can you provide a shred of evidence or even a motive for that outrageous statement?

Drivers of the exact same car as what's being simulated should be the final arbiters of whether the sim is reacting properly to inputs. That's the final quality check that should supersede whatever you think your formulas are telling you.

Unless you've got a real driver giving you feedback, letting you know if the car is reacting properly to control inputs, and - most importantly - telling you if real-word driving techniques actually work in-game, all you can do is guess.

Again, I find it absolutely amazing how people (none of whom have any IRL competition experience) are so willing to discount the opinion of a guy who has actually driven the simulated car in real races. That blows my mind. Is it somehow threatening to hear the opinion of someone who actually races these cars? Because I've seen this exact same attitude many times before.

The driver is always accused (with zero evidence presented) of being a shill, of "having the wrong settings", of "having the wrong equipment", of "just being a hater",of "often lying" etc etc.

I mean, if a real driver can't use real driving techniques in the sim, what in the hell does it matter what some engineer thinks?

 

What are you getting all spun up about. All I was saying is sim racers typically take drivers word as truth, makes sense we love sim racing because of irl motor sports and drivers are the irl stars of the sport we like to follow. But what I’m saying is drivers don’t always have the larger picture of how car dynamics manifest themselves. That’s why when developers use purely driver feedback they do often get conflicting information on the same subject from the drivers.

All I was saying is instead of looking to drivers to tell us if the sim is realistic, why don’t we ask the engineers who’s job is to literally analyze irl car behavior. They are the ones with all the data and insight to tell you of the sim is following irl trends.

I’m guessing you don’t have any track experience either based on your comments? I’m a consultant for for a few teams irl for car design and suspension analysis. Im at the track nearly every weekend with 3 different teams atm. And yes I help coach drivers too. And yes they do lie. Not intentionally but because when your in the cockpit and your feeling the pressure it rest isn’t the best place to diagnosis the behavior of a car. Here are some pictures at the track I took a few weeks back

p.s - you mentioned drivers being able to apply real life techniques to the sim, and yes that is true. But in real life the man trigger for those techniques are g force sensations. Many irl drivers can’t drive in a sim because of it. In a sim you have virtually 0 feedback. That is why FFB is so important an sim. The steering wheel must make up for the lack of g force feeling in the steering wheel (which isn’t realistic) so drivers have a sense of where the limit it. Most drivers can’t get over the lack of g force and insert a bias into a sim straight off the bat.

 

I didn't see David Perel mentioned, unless I missed it.

 

David in this video: "None of this guys ( iRacing and GT Sport) come close to a simulation of a GT3 car than ACC, ACC is best at simulating a GT3 car". I belive him
With all respect to @Joshie W , (thats information I got from this thread) he only drove that huracan in one race in 2016, while David Perel here competes in Blancpain for couple of seasons now and aditionally has a lot of simracing backround with is shown on his YT channel,

On this thread there has been a big discussion about racing drivers opinions about Sim-racing titles, and I think it should be obvious that they are the one that know how real car behaves, but real world isnt a simulation and if u arnt experenced in driving with no G-forces then your statments that are based on feelings with G-forces can be ,repeat, can be not nessesery have to be but can be just wrong, David is familiar with simulators and he is definitly a man when it comes to comparision betwen two things, we have to bare in mind that two different approaches are needed (sim: only FFB screens or VR, maybe motion platform that accually doesnt tell u that much ; real life that u expereince with all your instincts) while final product that is car driving arround the track should be relatively simmilar. Going from sim to real life u gain thosee feedbacks, the othe way around u only loose them, so u have to be also be able to feel all these things that u feel normally by obly looking at the screen and feeling wheel's FFB

I think that even though @Joshie W had some experience with both sim racing and GTD lambo; based on things that i have read here he is not as experienced in either of them as others are , but his observations can be vital in further development of our sim because of that approach:t he person that had a basic contact with the real thing takes a simulator that is proven by many (David for example , and others) to be accually qiute realistic and somehow does not feel that realism, I think its more about why someone who should feel those things doesnt feel them and as it was stated before it may be down to various factors both on Joshe's side and ACC's side, it'll be nice to see the final resault of this whole operation of Joshie trying out ACC once again.

I am very interested in your opinion about ACC now after a lot of changes @Joshie W, hope u will like it this time, its an awesome sim in my opinion. Can we possibly ask You about your sim-racing experience @Joshie W, it would be nice to know not only your your opinion about ACC but also sim-racing overall?? Thanks!

 

if I am not mistaken, his comment is very ancient now

 

Heres another video from Dave. He also mentions driving technique in this video.

 

Nice Thread!

 

OK, thanks for that clarification. I think it would’ve been helpful if you had actually said those things in your original post, rather than just stating “drivers lie” with zero explanation or context, leaving it very unclear what you even meant. That’s why I got “spun up”, as you put it. If you had explained from the outset what you meant, my reply would’ve been worded somewhat differently.

And, since you asked: Over 35 years of driving in amateur series (SCCA), mainly D production back when that was a thing. Had a test with a major team (Roush Protofab) but decided to go to college/med school. Been doing track days ever since, as time/practice of medicine allows. I use driving sims mainly for track familiarization (at a vastly lower cost than the real thing), and playing around with setups (though usually the sim allows way more options than what I have available IRL).

You're correct that learning to translate FFB to G-forces ("seat of the pants"/vestibular input) is something that takes time, and it's never a perfect translation. You can't learn to drive a real car at the limit using just a simulator.

My own opinion about ACC (and note that I've never driven a high-downforce car, so take this with a big grain of salt) is this: It feels pretty damn accurate. But the problem is that the FFB doesn't give you enough info to make up for the loss of that vestibular input (ie G forces) you talked about. So little things like feeling the rear starting to slide as you exit corners doesn't get translated all that well, and you end up leaning on the TC a lot as a result. In a real (mildly-prepped for the track) BMW M6, I can power slide out of every single corner (assuming I want to kill my tires and the fragile diff on the M6). But in ACC, this very simple skill (that I've been doing my entire adult life) is relatively difficult to perform, because I can't really feel what's happening at the back of the car through the wheel. I always feel like I'm a half-second behind what the car is actually doing.

Which, I guess, is technically realistic: IRL you're not using "wheel feedback" much at all to determine what the car is doing. I'd say most of the track cars I've driven have had what any sim racer would probably call "very numb" steering. It wasn't until I started getting into these sims (about 5 years ago) that I even thought about using the wheel to tell me what the car was doing. I would think that any driver with over 500 hours in AC (like Josh) would have already figured this out. That's why I think his opinion is still very important, irrespective of whether the cars in ACC are driving "correctly" from a physics standpoint.