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Assetto Corsa Competizione - 2020 Generic discussion

Discussion in 'ACC General Discussions' started by dave967, Oct 22, 2019.

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  1. Luis Branco

    Luis Branco Alien

  2. Beautiful track :love: :eek:;)
     
  3. Luis Branco

    Luis Branco Alien

  4. pazzi008

    pazzi008 Racer

    hope the curbs will crumble like IRL lol
     
    Freddie Seng and Son like this.
  5. Serge M

    Serge M Alien

    Exactly it, I hover mid 90’s a bad run will put me in 90 flat but I get back in to the mid 90’s fairly easy and on a good run hit 98.

    Fluctuating by a few points is normal. Fluctuating by 20 or so? It’s not them, it’s you
     
  6. anthonylroy

    anthonylroy Hardcore Simmer

    After watching this video I think ACC sa rating is probably one of the best implementations, if not the best.
     
    Piret2000 likes this.
  7. Ciccina2016

    Ciccina2016 Simracer

    and the 5000 players playing every day on their servers are idiots:rolleyes:..
     
  8. azzah

    azzah Simracer

    Before you're acting all smug and roll your eyes as hard as you can, you could take a quick look at the video.

    Spoiler: There are no condescending remarks about any one simulator or the drivers on it. And it provides some universally applicable tips for safer racing in general.
     
    Serge M and After_Midnight like this.
  9. Si.

    Si. Simracer

    If you have high SA and you race with others with high SA then it’s naturally going to be easier to maintain/increase. However, if due to availability you find yourself on lower SA servers e.g. 40 to 65 which seem common, then a bump at the start which is more common on those servers can mean that if you’re then out of position it’s very difficult to get any SA/ trust back.

    I’d like to see SA consider fast/clean laps that perhaps have a certain level of Consistency and Car Control (history could be used to try and combat one race good behaviour), even if no one else is around you. I’d also like to see minimal SA loss at the start i.e. nudges, scrapes, bumps where each car continues on track have little SA impact, only when cars are spun or sent off track is SA meaningfully impacted. I’d also like to see the penalty weighted more to the following car, I know people will brake check etc. but I feel that is less likely by those at the front of the grid and the simple counter for the car behind is leave more space.

    My goal is just to race, I’ve said it before and still feel the same way, the presentation of the SA is too granular and spoils things in some respects because you feel that you need to protect some arbitrary number rather than just race. I’d prefer one overall rating that is determined by all others and is just presented as e.g. Platinum, Gold, Silver, Bronze or Rookie and that controls race entry.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
    Epistolarius and After_Midnight like this.
  10. Of course it is retarded. But it is possible so don't blame the user of this exploit only.

    Let's have a look at the best implementation of SA ever. And let's do it like the Kunos guys. Just look at pure numbers.

    Here are my SA session details after one of the most exciting races ever. Close door to door racing with five amazing clean, fair and fast guys. Just one very slightly touch which I've not even noticed (20min/server SA 59):
    [​IMG]

    And here are my SA session details after one of the most boring farming test against the AI's (30min/AI@88).
    [​IMG]

    Like you can see it is much more easier to reach higher numbers in SA (96 in my case) in singleplayer.
    Thats for sure looks like the one of the best implementations, if not the best of an online only rating.
    On a side effect you'll rise your consistency and race craft rating too.
    Just stay close to the last AI, overtake at the straights and let the AI pass again in the breaking zone.
    For anyone who will try it out:
    Warning! The AI tends to much more movement under braking like Max Verstappen.

    As a summary every average joe can easily reach that high numbers in single player. Much more easier than dedicated online racers. Last ones will need also much more time to rebuild their SA rating than user of this exploit.

    It's up to @Minolin to react.

    P.S.
    The MR rating in AC is/was more advanced than what we have in ACC.
    MR rating was able to make a difference between slightest touches and the hard ones. Also it is/was able to detect pile-up. To have that also in ACC would be a nice to have.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
  11. GRFOCO

    GRFOCO Alien

    Yes, that's my feeling too.
    And tbh i don't understand why. Not only slight/hard contact, but also wall contacts, pit lane penalty and other that now i don't remember.

    Also, there is huge room for improvements in acc regarding SA calculation regarding pit exit (exit from the pit and crash with other cars after few meters or even on the main straight), overtakes under yellow flags (potentially, dangerous move ever), respect for blue flags, in addition to what is missing from MR.

    Imho it's a bit of shame, 'cause a safety rating in a racing games is the most important rating, consistency, control, pace, and bla bla bla are cool but secondary and optional, imho.

    Watching MR in AC, my expectations (personal expectations obviously) regarding an official SA rating, Kunos made + minos's work, were a few steps higher.
     
    After_Midnight likes this.
  12. Flavus

    Flavus Racer

    lately this thread reminds me of this sketch

     
  13. ...same here mate :(
     
  14. Minolin

    Minolin Staff Member KS Dev Team

    To be honest, I'd love to discuss this. But something in the way you present your facts and jump to conclusions really puts me off investing my spare time here. At least try to give me the illusion that exchanging arguments could change your perspective, and this isn't just bashing with predetermined outcome.

    MR didn't penalize wall contacts, but I completely agree on the pit lane stuff. It was hell of a hack (and effort) in MR, but a very good thing. Sadly it didn't become easier in ACC so it'd be quite a trade, but hopefully I will get there.
    For the slight contacts we have huge improvements coming up, hell we even found a bug that dates back to AC1 (and MR :D ). SA always was a bit too grumpy about small contacts because we went looooong ways to make it good, but there's a lot to adjust and with this bug it wasn't really possible to reliably make sure we do penalize when it is necessary. I know this is a in your perspective, as you get the pessimistic outcome while you are doing fine in 90+% of the time - but we can't allow the few clowns to take over.

    Really? I completely disagree and still think anything below SA is a necessity for SA, and SA is the requirement for CP. The rest is fluff indeed.
    Track Competence, Consistency and Car Control was designed only because of SA - as long as you fail to beat a minimum requirement in one of those, even a measurement of SA doesn't make any sense and would be even unfair. I can't get how we still undervalue especially CN so damn hard in simracing.

    Just my personal opinion: MR is not even comparable to SA. Of course it was able to do shortcuts an official system cannot go, but apart from the pit exit line SA picks up everything that was good, and is between "a bit" and "massively" advanced. Nothing in MR was superior. There is only one part that may or may not be better; the higher abstraction of the grades instead of 99 resolution points. Was a lot easier to absorb frustrating hits by simply not knowing, but that also came with the price that the one hit that caused a downgrade was moved into the attention so badly that it's natural to forget all the actions before. I gave up to explain "no you are not D because of THIS ONE accident, but the series of actions before".

    What of course is controversial is the SP/AI integration, and I do admit that it doesn't work out super well because the AI has the knife between the teeth and that's always a fightongoing process with compromises. Recently it became quite good doing race starts without the huge slowdown train, but that came with quite some hot-headed behaviour in semiwet conditions.
    Originally, SA should consider the player guilty for any contact with the AI, which made it only easy to "farm" if you are really good - and then MP is equally easy for you (and given the current parameters it is a lot easier on higher SA levels). But as SA has to follow the behaviour and adjust numbers based on how the AI is doing, things got mixed up multiple times, similar to the paint trade penalties that were *way* too harsh both in SP and MP. But then again, we're constantly moving and right now my only concern about SA is that the sum of the changes make it hard to control/tell where the numbers may go.

    Still, the point of SP SA is that so far there is not one good solution to take care of newcomers. I know most of you are in the top 5% and simply don't care, and in a democratic way this is ok. MR had the freedom to do it in a similarily elitist fashion, which is likely why you have positive nostalgic feelings (although I still think the N grade is a lot better than considering newcomers equal to the worst scum around, without having a comparably fair way around - like the AI).
     
    Hagen, Piret2000, pankykapus and 8 others like this.
  15. azzah

    azzah Simracer

    You might want to clarify what you meant with this remark. Because if I have to take you literally (like Minolin did), I'll have to disagree wholeheartedly.
    While there are surely some areas that need tweaking or expanding in the rating system, I find that particularly the CN and CC ratings have improved multiplayer racing for everyone in ACC.

    To back up a bit: I haven't experienced Minorating. I know iRacing only from watching other people play it. I started simracing (with a wheel) on PS4. On PC I only mostly kept toying around in single player, as joining public lobbies was often merely a crapshoot between being trapped in a vehicular pinball machine and "racing" against people that drove circles around me. Yeah, I didn't have a lot of fun there.

    That changed dramatically when the ratings were gradually introduced in ACC. These little numbers on the top of my screen helped me improve my driving like nothing else before. Now that I think of it, maybe they shouldn't be called "ratings" like some grade you're displayed after your session. You don't get to show them off to the internet.
    They are a live, almost realtime assessent of your driving. They are more like an instructor in the passenger seat quietly nodding when you're doing alright or expressing their disapproval with a cold "tsk, tsk".

    Especially car control is a tool that I keep coming back to, when switching to a different car for example, or after a longer break. There are a lot of other people on ACC that have had a similar experience, and there are the forum posts to prove it.
    You might brush off those ratings as second class because you didn't need them, but the reality is that they are the basics that anyone has to develop in order to become a safe driver.

    And as I understand Minolins countless comments on the ratings, your current CC performance even factors into the amount of trust you gain, which in turn plays a pretty significant part in the SA rating.
    How is that "secondary" or "optional" again? If we already have the numbers, why should we hide them when they could help people improve instead?

    A safe driver has to know which direction the track goes and to stay between the white lines (TR), they have to know their braking and turn-in points (CN) and they have to be able to drive around the track at a reasonable pace without sliding all over the place (CC). Only then you can think about racing other cars without hitting them.

    In the wise words of Steven Tyler: "You have to learn to crawl before you learn to walk."
     
    Hagen, Minolin and Beckers like this.
  16. Thank you for your reply. I'd love to discuss this too. Open minded.
    But exchanging of arguments to change my perspective only is the opposite of an open minded discussion. It's about to find compromises.
    I'll not try to give you any illusion. This is the way I feel about the ACC multiplayer, about things I miss, about things I'd like to have improved. My own personal view based on about 10-15 years of multiplayer experience.
     
  17. Minolin

    Minolin Staff Member KS Dev Team

    It's the very definition of an open minded discussion ;) Any exchange where one side isn't ready to change the opinion based on logic and/or facts is not an discussion but a defense. Perspective is even more important (and easier to do).

    Don't get me wrong, that's not even an opinion but a fact, and it's taken very seriously. After all, even inside simracing we create things that should bring fun.
    As usual, things are not so easy. Around SA, overwhelmingly often it looks easy but is logically hard (or impossible).

    But a good start would be to neutrally describe what you dislike, and what discourages you (bonus points: without jumping to conclusions). To be honest we get negative feedback from all sides, and just starting with "SA is ridiculous" could have several different meanings that partially contradict themselves - some say it's too easy, some say it's too hard (multiply that by both for SP and MP).

    Of course I can read in the context that you have a problem with farming SA. I also jump to the conclusion that you specifically blame SA active in SP, based on your examples.
    So, let's go deeper here. First thought is "is there a proven case where farming is effectively impossible?" I don't see one, but I'll happily examine it if you can give me a carrot. If we can make a way (that is compatible to more than the top 10%) that'd be kind of the holy grail right now, or at least 1/2 holy grails I can see.

    So farming; I think we agree on looking for methods to increase/optimize/maximize Safety Rating by doing things in a "job" way, that has nothing to do with what we are actually here for. It's boring to be forced into farming, and it allows drivers to join servers they do not belong (because they could farm a Safety Rating above their skills) - agree?

    The systems/concepts I know most about:
    iRacing - the pinacle of simracing where the most frequent request is to just copy everything. Their names for SA, Trust, OBWP are SR, Corners, Incident Points.
    Similarities are obvious, the biggest differences is that they stick to a super-simple system where anything is clear. Contact? 4 IP. Made a corner? Corners += 1. SR is a direct ratio between both, classes are certain thresholds.
    While the advantage is clear, the disadvantage is that there is no gray in between - the ACC system knows a lot gray instead, which makes it harder to forsee the numbers you'll get.

    But I don't want to get lost in a point-for-point comparison, more looking at the "farmability" of known and proven solutions. In iR, your "good side" of the ratio is the corners you've driven. (To my knowledge) there is no distinction if you are alone, in a lose formation or in a heavy fight. So the way to improve the rating is always "drive, drive drive". To optimize for SR alone, the best way is to stay away from any risk and do laps on your own. Given the definition, this could be considered farming - you can choose to do something that is not fun, but work for the SR to rise (and it has nothing to do with the original statement SR wants to stand for). In theory, the whole concept kind of solves this by having you to force to chose between farming SR or maintaining your iRating - but that'd require zero loopholes where you can bypass this choice.

    Minorating - Obviously I have some insights here. In MR, the names are MR, (unnamed) good points and CP (contact points). The good points actually are "distance driven", but three different ones. The basic distance driven is *very* comparable to corners, but on top there are two distances based on other car's proximity that have quite drastic multipliers. To achieve the highest ranks, it's not enough to just drive alone, you had to fight, take risks and still manage to avoid accidents. Well, now I can say it - the biggest flaw was probably that "fight" wasn't true. As a server plugin, there was so little information that I simply couldn't prevent farming. You would get the maximum points for just driving next to a partner/mate on an empty server. While I desperately tried to prevent this (and a few hacks maybe gave the impression that it does), the data to do this quite hard task simply wasn't available.

    ACC - Names now are SA, Trust, OWBP. We took the important concepts from MR and worked on the things that are now easier, or possible at all (strickly speaking from the perspective of farming and its prevention).
    We still have the three distances, but as SA partially runs on the client in realtime, we also have access to a few interesting data bits. Here the CC plays an important role, as it tells us both if somebody is going overly slow (exactly matching the "pick a mate and drive slowly in circles") - or going way too hard, which is a risk on it's own. Of course we cannot binary allow gaining Trust based on alien-level perfection, so the whole thing is working more gradually. The slower you go (in terms of how much more pace your tyres could go), the slower you gain Trust.

    Of course the ultimate goal is to have the best Trust gain when you do (well at) what we want to measure in the first place - real racing. Go as fast as you can, don't hit anybody. Conceptually I do not see the obvious mistake, or the obviously better solution.

    And you are absolutely right saying this "Of course it is retarded. But it is possible so don't blame the user of this exploit only." - we have to understand why (you think?) it's like that. But I hope I could show a few thoughts, and that avoiding incentives of farming was on our plans even during the time when MR was designed, and obviously re-visited while SA was designed.


    Now as we covered the distances, let's move to your examples:

    You say the first one was 20 minutes door-to-door, the "KM" numbers tell a different story. Bug or different perception, but for the 2nd race you have been in the "dogfight" range for 54km. That's the outer range we already used in MR, and it's barely giving you Trust (again like in MR). In the first race you had only 12 km logged - the rest simply wasn't even close to another car. Thus less risk, and less Trust.
    Interestingly, if we look at the ratios: Of the "action time" of the first race, it's absolutely obvious that the action was a lot better: 20/12 = 1.67 Trust per km. Compared to 42/54 = 0.78 Trust per km this means (again for the time while you were close to another car) your real racing was generating 214% the Trust of the boring farming round. (btw that one OBWP is completely insignificant in a ratio of 20/1)

    One interesting point would be your current SA value; that has influence on the SA generated in SP. Additionally, 88 AI is *way* too slow inside the given mechanics. If you chose at least 93 strength (shouldn't be much of a difference from your diriving PoV), farming should be more efficient.

    So far to my thoughts on the matter. Again, I'll be happy to get my hands on anything that is a better solution - although we only scratech the tip of the iceberg in terms of total requirements on that system. So if we only look at this path, there are obvious improvements that may/will break the total system on other places.
     
    LeDude83, Hagen, Freddie Seng and 9 others like this.
  18. Tim Wilson

    Tim Wilson Simracer

    As long as you promise to work on this till death- I, for one, can sleep well.:)
    And I see my un-farmed SA 77 as that of a super safe driver.
     
  19. Minolin

    Minolin Staff Member KS Dev Team

    That'd may be a bit long term as a promise (hopfully), but I can assure you that this is the one topic I carry in my heart.

    I think it is, and in the same time that's the obvious critique I'd immediately agree on. The scale is off, and what a 77 actually means.
     
  20. anthonylroy

    anthonylroy Hardcore Simmer

    I think I lost 4 SA points in the last couple of days , and am pretty angry about it. However when I think about it , I become angry with myself not the system. they were mostly accidents I could have avoided. I tried farming once , It completely misses the point. I just like racing.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
    Nox and Tim Wilson like this.
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