Who's at Fault? - Discussing Racecraft and Incidents

Its not true. It won't turn in with the default setup enough (at least with my wheel), to be able to make the corner with someone beside you.

If it does not turn that much, then you still cannot do anything about it. - I don't even understand why the default setup is made that way.
And funny, when I lowered the Steering ratio, it DID turn in much more.
So you are wrong there.

And since I drive the Ferrari almost exclusively, I do know that I am talking about, as I experienced it a lot.

 

Yup, he is at least wrong in the part of better turn-in.
Lowering the steering ratio increases the responsiveness and turn in (when the setup is not too understeery and the driver is not throwing it in like a lumberjack, of course ), especially with larger rims. After changing to a larger wheelrim, i always lower the steering ratio by at least one click and i'm not even lying, that it gains a second in laptimes for me, just out of habit, also there is way more controllability in wheel to wheel situations and fast reactions.

I also drive the 488 quite often and it has the capability to turn much sharper, than it would be expected to be (Aggressive Setup with lowered steering ratio). But it also helps with control in cars like the old Aston V12, this beast is sluggish and doesn't want to turn, lowering steering ratio alone makes it more precise and agile.

 

You can change the Rim size???

 

Feel free to add me, always looking for regular people to drive with, its usually more fun

 

again 1:18:25

depends on technic
g29
the car is is a even too oversteery for the some technics. you need to release the brake accordingly. I have probably 1000h on that car.

 

I have just made a mirror image of the same overtake on the same corner shown in this video.
A bit of background behind it, I started after the race had already begun (I know, I shouldn't really but wanted a little practice) but I was only 1 lap down.
This was the start of lap 9 and we had been close for some time. When I overtook I knew I was better on the brakes so went for it and easily made the corner, but he 'just' touched me (in a special place) and cut the track ending up back in front (not intentionally i'm sure), I have then stuck behind him, which has obviously caused him pressure until he lost it and went off track.
He then went on to me saying back markers shouldn't be racing.
What are your feelings of back markers 'racing;, to try and not be lapped?
Was my overtake a dive bomb or a legitimate overtake?

I don't mind if I am at fault as this is how we learn (by our mistakes).

This gets straight into the overtake and runs until he loses under pressure.



EDIT
Actually looking at it again there was a blue flag. Not sure if it was for him due to me being faster or for me due to the car behind.

incidentally I started p14 and finished p5 despite being a lap down.

 

The Lexus obviously stayed on the gas when it slipped out in Lesmo 2.
Super dangerous and ruthless.
When driving back on the racetrack, it almost crashed

 

In my opinion both overtakes are on the side of a dive bomb.
The direction change for the overtake is on the braking point (Salvatore’s video) and well after the braking point (Thug’s video).

In Salvatore’s overtake, the direction change happened on the very edge of the braking point, with a shift to the right practically when the braking starts.
There isn’t a contact because the 488 in front delayed just slightly the turn in, but have he turned right a tiny sooner, as he could have, and the contact would have happened. The reason there wasn’t a contact is entirely merit of the 488 in front, which allowed a very, very risky overtake made by Salvatore.

In Thug’s overtake, the dive bomb is even clearer, with the change direction well inside the braking zone, with the Bentley changing the line after the braking has started and the contact being entirely Bentley’s fault.
It could happens the Bentley was surprised by the Lexus braking a bit sooner, but at that point it’s all up to the Bentley to avoid the situation and any incident is his own fault.

 

I'm going right in the assumption you're a lap down and you basicially un-lap yourself?
If so I tend to say your overtake at the first chicane where a bit too late introduced. As the un-lapping car you've to be sure to do it in a most safe way possible. But it's hard to say because I don't know exactly what's going on beside of both of you. If the Lexus are not in direct fight with others he can let easy the much faster car pass without loosing anything.
So maybe a 50:50 thing.

Everything what happend after this incident in the first chicane is up to him and absolutly not your fault.

You have all the rights to un-lap yourself. But you have to do it safe and be sure you don't intervene the current racing.

 

I turned in just 1 meter before the braking point. And it's thanks to Kapo Gunyesu if there was no contact. Anyway it was very well executed.

 

The "default setup", will NOT be changed/adjusted by any sim to suit the size of the wheel rim your wheel has, it will be what the RL car has.

Its up to the user to change the ratio to suit your wheel, that's why it adjustable.

 

Is your reply related to Thug's "monza pressure" video?

 

No question about it.
Both drivers kept it very tight and controlled, nice to watch, but very risky just the same.

Dive bomb: I know the term may be somehow seen as pejorative, but it's the description that best suits what happens, in the sense that is a sudden movement that, very rapidly, put the car in place where isn't expected to be occupied and can cause a crash.

My interpretation of this, in order to avoid dive bomb situations, is to position the car in a way that the driver in front becomes aware of a possibly overtake manoeuvre before the braking point, because the braking zone isn't the best place to change direction suddenly, either because the driver that do the direction change can lose car control, precisely due to the sudden manoeuvre, or because the driver in front is already committed to his own braking and manoeuvre, without any time and room to compensate for the sudden direction change of the car behind.

However, and despite the car wanting to overtake is already in position for the manoeuvre before the braking zone, it must be also in an advantage position to execute the overtake, so it's not only a matter of not changing the direction, for instance, for taking a line right (or left) of the car in front, but also being close enough in terms of longitudinal distance to the other car, for instance already on his side (at least with the front of his car well ahead of the rear tyre of the car in front), so that the commitment to overtake is well determined before the braking point and the car is well positioned so the car in front must take also in account the position of the car trying to overtake,

Of course, this is very easy to say but in race, often, things happens very fast, the drivers don't stop to use a tape measure to take distances and to know if the car is ahead of the rear tyre or not, if the braking points are identical - the car in front can brake sooner and so, the car behind change direction before his own braking, but after the car in front started to brake - and so many other possibilities that can lead to contacts, incidents and severe crashes.

 

Yes, to the overtake on the chicane, the one that led to the contact between the Bentley and the Lexus, the first 5 to 10 seconds of the video.

 

I think he saw red mist because I was faster on the corners (he was faster on the straight though).

How about the blue flag? Who do you think that was aimed at?
If the Lexus should he have adhered to it?

 

The blue flag was for you due to the car behind, but was the car behind within 1 second or less of you?
If I'm not mistaken (I can be wrong) the blue flag is shown when the distance to a car being overlapped is 1 second or less.
In the video it doesn't seem that the car behind you is within less than 1 second.

But surely the blue flag wasn't for the Lexus just because the Bentley behind was faster, if the Bentley was overlapped (as it was, for starting the race late).
The blue flag is show to the car in front (the one that is to be overlapped), when the car behind is in front in race position but not in track position, regardless if the car to be overlapped is faster or not...well, if the car in front is faster, the car behind will not close the gap and can't get close enough to overlap ...unless is being slowed by a car in front that is ahead in race position and ahead in track position, which must be unlaped to run away from the car behind... , so many possibilities

 

To be honest I don't see a dive bomb done by @Thug . Also I don't agree with your definition of a dive bomb:

A dive bomb needs no sudden movement at all. Also late moving in the braking zone will not end automatically in dive bombing.
A dive bomb is for me the too late braking, overshooting the corner entry, cut of any line of the opponent and forcing the other car off track/line to avoid an accident.
Nothing of this happened in the case of the "monza pressure" video. @Thug didn't miss the corner entry and was staying at the inside of the corner and left enough room for the Lexus. The Lexus turned in too much and ignored the Bentley completely.
So I can't blame @Thug for dive bombing. The only thing I've to mention to @Thug he have to be much more carefully because he's un-laping himself at this moment.
Just for the fact @Thug was one lap down I partly agree with you:

Like I said:

Please keep in mind this is my personal opinion and it can be wrong too.

 

It's perfectly fine the have different views and, in fact, it's good that we can debate this, because on track there is no time to debate, the decision of what to do is on the moment (altough sometimes we can shout - or be shouted - to the screen but with no avail )
What you described is surely a dive bomb, with added loss of car control. That's the worst type of dive bombing.

However I don't think that a dive bomb is measured only by the consequences but rather by the manoeuvre in itself, regardless if there is a contact or not, or even loss of car control.
As I've put it, to me a dive bomb is (also) when the car behind uses a sort of "jump" with "gotcha" manoeuvre, suddenly changing direction inside the braking zone, when the cars are usually committed to braking and turn in.
The car behind can very well control the braking and turn (and so the car in front), but the matter is the manoeuvre taken in the braking zone is a dangerously optimistic attempt that can easily cause an incident, even if it ends not happening, by forcing his way inside at the very last second and preventing the outside car from turning in using the normal turning line (which he was entitled to for being ahead in the braking zone).
Plus, even if the car behind don't change direction at all (being already left or right of the car in front), if the distance isn't close enough (roughly the front aligned with the front drivers position), when they are both committed to brake and turn in, the car behind is the one that as to give way to the car in front, because the car in front can take the apex to make the turn and is not the one required to give room for both cars to turn (although he might chose to make the room, nonetheless).

In Thug's video, his manoeuvre is a bit on the aggressive side (in terms of timing and distances, not in attitude per se) in how the corner is approached, such that the Lexus give him more than enough room on the turn in (the room available on the right of the Lexus is clearly greater than the width of the Bentley), but still the Bentley collided with the right side of the Lexus, pushing him left and out the corner, preventing him of making the turn. It seems clear that the Bentley was unable to make the turn without causing a contact with the Lexus.

 

I mean my actual physical rim. The CSL P1 Rim is a bit larger, than the G27. This was resulting in less turn in, but better smoothness of movement, but i like my twitchy car-***

One way, or another, increasing steering rotation helps indeed, with getting better turn-in.

 

I always thought that the term "turn in" refers to the cars ability to "turn in", less understeer for example,... not the amount the driver has to turn the steering wheel, to achieve the required rotation..
I think the varied usage of the term here, is causing some of the misunderstandings/disagreements.

I like a "twitchy" car also, much better when actually "racing".

One of the reasons I like low diff preload, drop the throttle, and instant "turn in",...