Who's at Fault? - Discussing Racecraft and Incidents

No and Yes.
There has to be a rule or at least a guideline when i am obviously allowed to take a line through the corner and also the other car. Crash only occur when one makes a mistake or one disrespects.

Again thx for the answers and good advises, but: Iam actually asking how would stewards review those and which guidelines they are following if they had to.
i know where you coming from.
you see an inexperienced driver and want to teach him the right mindset and dont want to give straight guidelines because the driver has to practise more before he can "insist" on his rights. Thats actually not my intention to insist on those "rights" like an advocat and then call the other driver names if he did wrong. i really go after the philosophy live to fight and i really dont care about position. i really like to fight for positions. racing takes two and after learning how to be fast you gotta learn how to race.
As far as i can read from this thread (almost 80%through) there are a lot of different opinions on exactly those questions. Sometimes you even argue if a corner is actually a corner. (the spa incident or the monza incident with the pro simracers. Both of them were the fault of the driver in front to my humble understanding)
maybe this also is the problem why there are so many different opinions, cause the lack of clarification, definition or common guidlines.

 

The incidents in your videos are caused by poor racecraft. Rules have nothing to do with it.

Right on the money.

This again is the wrong mindset. It's the other way around. First you learn how to race and then you try to go fast.

I hope you understand what I am saying here.

 

Iam sorry but i strongly have to disagree. Rules are there to teach and force people to do the right thing. Thats why new racers should learn them and get used to them. This statement of yours, I gotta say is just false. Why shouldnt rules apply to Rookie Classes?
I actually think this is a dangerous mindset of yours (even it is meant in a good way towards me)
Learning the Rules and Etiquette and complying with them is actually going to make you a better racedriver. Its a damn part of Racecraft itself.
Another thing is, poor racecraft can also be seen relative. You can say that in every crash poor racecraft was a cause.

dude you just want to make a point on which i am already with you but still iam sorry: this statement of yours is even more wrong.
first of all its just a saying to make a difference between beeing fast and also being able to race. which alot of people forget. thats just nitpicking what you are doing. second, its still false because they go hand in hand.
Would you send your son on the racetrack on an official race before he even did some practice laps against himself? Before you even think of "race and dance and ride" with another one you gotta be confident with pace and your car.

I hope you can get off your high horse or atleast the horse off the racecar and start to discuss the things i was asking or let it be.

 

I don't think there's anything more to discuss really. You could try reading what I've written so far a few more times, to try and understand what I am saying. You clearely don't at this moment in time.

Also, this thread is called "Who's at fault", and it's not meant to discuss rules and regulations.

 

How can you even got the guts to say i dont understand what you try to say? I even recognised your intentions on your vague first post as you proudly confessed.
How do you want to teach someone the right mindset when you dont teach him the rules?
How do you even know that you yourself got the right mindset when you dont know the rules?

"Whos at fault" is directly and actually ONLY related to the damn rules. Therefore we are still ON-Topic.
Look we can end this here because i found something myself on the internet.

Ill leave this link here which might really be interesting for atleast the others:

Its a decent Article:
Guide to Roadracing
https://www.windingroad.com/articles/blogs/the-road-racers-guide-to-passing-etiquette/

Here is an excerpt of the rules mentioned in the Article which are taken from NASA (National Autosport Assosiation) If you can adopt them 1:1, i dont know. Maybe someone knows more

25.4 Rules for Overtaking

25.4.1 Passing General
The responsibility for the decision to pass another car, and to do it safely, rests with the overtaking driver. The overtaken driver should be aware that he/she is being passed and must not impede the pass by blocking. A driver who does not watch his/her mirrors or who appears to be blocking another car seeking a pass may be black-flagged and/or penalized. The act of passing is initiated when the trailing car’s (Car A) front bumper overlaps with the lead car’s (Car B) rear bumper. The act of passing is complete when Car A’s rear bumper is ahead of Car B’s front bumper. “NO PASSING” means a pass cannot even be initiated. Any overlap in a NO PASSING area is considered illegal.

25.4.2 Punting
The term “punting” is defined as nose to tail (or side-of-the-nose to side-of-the-tail) contact, where the leading car is significantly knocked off of the racing line. Once the trailing car has its front wheel next to the driver of the other vehicle, it is considered that the trailing car has a right to be there. And, that the leading driver must leave the trailing driver enough “racing room.” In most cases, “racing room” is defined as “at least three quarters of one car width.” If adequate racing room is left for the trailing car, and there is incidental contact made between the cars, the contact will be considered “side-to-side.” In most cases, incidental side-to-side contact is considered to be “just a racing incident.” If, in the case of side-to-side contact, one of the two cars leaves the racing surface (involuntarily) then it may still be considered “a racing incident.”
Note: See specific class rules for variations in this rule.

25.4.3 Right to the Line
The driver in front has the right to choose any line, as long as they are not considered to be blocking. The driver in front loses the right to choose his or her line when the overtaking driver has their front wheel next to the driver.

25.4.4 Blocking
A driver may choose to protect his or her line so long as it is not considered blocking. Blocking is defined as two (2) consecutive line changes to “protect his/her line,” and in doing so, impedes the vehicle that is trying to pass with each of the two (2) consecutive movements. Drivers are encouraged to check with the Race Director for a full explanation before the start of the race.

Every single question of mine is answered here.

PS: The Fact that something like the above link is not even mentioned in 70+pages of this Forumtopic actually is shocking. No wonder everyone got his own views and mindsets. No wonder everyone is blaming everyone and ranting about SA points and systems.

Get the people to learn the rules!

 

Correct, any discussion about who is at fault, CANNOT be done without considering the rules, which the above is very typical, otherwise,... it simply becomes some one's OPINION, which is obviously of no value when assigning blame.

Although, drivers opinions about the why and how a driver came to be at fault, "he understeered into another car", "he didn't see the other car", is defiantly of interest, but does not change who's is at fault, only explains how an incident happened.

In my opinion.

 

could it be something like of this nature?:
You are expected to anticipate what your car is doing and what the other car is doing. That is, you don’t decide if you’re going to make the pass when you car is at the points described in the written and unwritten rules, but based on what will happen a second or two down the road when you get to (or don’t get to) those points. This is the only way you can adjust your speed or line or both in time to avoid problems. A racer who can't or doesn't anticipate well needs to be cautious and practice his or her observational skills. A racer who repeatedy doesn't anticipate well and drives aggressively is an idiot, and shouldn't be out there.

Its also taken from the article above.

 

somehow i couldnt edit the post above and this got lost:

nevertheless, this act of anticipating is extremley hard and you have to practise it and get experience to do so. It doesnt then help if everyone has his own understanding what he is allowed or obliged to. Actually if everyone would follow Rules it would be much easier to anticipate what the other driver will do. It makes both drivers predictable and is essential for racing and obviously handled like this in reallife. Its not some strange kind of voodoo magic.
And still iam baffled that there is not one link to an official ruleset in this whole thread or i must have missed it badly.

Take both incidents on the last corner of Nurburgring as an example why rules are important:
On the first one, he clearly saw me going on the inside. He still was ahead and decided to close the door. Would i have known the ruleset i would automatically have backed off cause i wasnt clearly "alongside". Was it a hard and a close call of the Audi? Yes. Would the stewards blame me, the Ferrari? Probably.

The second one where he got in the grass i was definitley "alongside" him. So he had to give me room. I had the "Right to the Line". Did he gave me room? Well, as hard as it might be for me, he barley gave me room. Obviously not enough for my skill. Was it my fault? Yes
Was the Audi a stubborn Pro-Class? It doesnt even matter because its beyond the question of whos fault it is.

Btw after all this reading, thinking and time passing by i gotta say its clearly the AMGs fault vs the McLaren in Silverstone. He had more than 2 carwidths of racetrack, he turns in on the McLaren when there was no need to do so. My mistake could have been that i turn a little to the outside when going "too" close to the other car but that would only be of relevance in a later moment that never happened. He would have bumped into me nevertheless of my steering input.
I mean noone blames the line of the car infront of the McLaren and we were going in a train.
But this might be an example where interpretation of rules comes into play.

Good Night

 

Again then, the incidents in your videos are caused by poor racecraft and having the wrong mindset. These will happen regardless of knowing the rules or not.

The mindset we're talking about hasn't got a direct relation to the rules and regulations. It has to do with common sense. If you have poor racecraft, you don't go out racing others on the limit, because you will get into incidents like these all the time. You first need to work on your car control, your consistancy and your overall driving skills.

I guess it is yes. That's why I said, I don't think there is anyone in particulair to blame in the incidents in your videos. It's just poor driving all around that causes them.

That is actually a good explenation of what anticipation means. As I said before, being able to anticipate to other drivers is very important. It seems you are on the right track now.

 

Ofcourse rules are very important and racing with drivers that don't know the rules or you yourself not knowing them, makes things more difficult.

On public servers however, you can't rely on other drivers to know and drive by the rules, or them not making stupid mistakes or not being total idiots for that matter. You only have your common sense, your anticipation and your racecraft to keep you out of trouble.

 

If you keep repeating a false statement, it doesnt make it true. You dont even add a valid argument to reeinforce your statement. I already prove to you that at least one of those incidents wouldnt have happened:

I also stated that every single damn incident is related to "poor racecraft" of atleast one of the involved drivers, because a pass can only be considered to be done with good racecraft when its done inside the given ruleset. Its redundant if you keep mentioning it.
Look at this video:

Its actually an almost identical situation like the last two of nurburgring. Evenly hard corner to overtake.
He is barley (if at all) going side by side, the other car barley leaves room, inside car slips over curb and crashes. Inside cars fault.
That both guys probably got better Car Control and might be 2 or more seconds faster than me is without debate but also not of interest. Still the same idendical misjudge of a situation happened. You would say: That was poor racecraft. It was. But it doesnt add anything of worth. You see this is?
It also proves what i already said: Racecraft is relative. Better drivers just can go to higher limits. But principles stay the same.

Stop taking and ripping my quotes out of context like Micheal Moore. Thanks.

Dude you are throwing around the words: mindset, racecraft, common sense like they were some mystical jedi mind voodoo bull**** and leaving out the rules. Its simple. They are interdependent. You just cant take out any of things on its own.
As said above ofcourse i can race others on the limit. On my and his limit. Thats the Art.

Why do you then "deny" me the information i was asking for? Thats not good teaching.

This actually is the only valid argument you brought into this discussion. Iam afraid to still say its not of interest and off-topic. I didnt ask how i could have avoided the accident nor is it the topic of this thread. (BTW still i noted that those werent bad advises and said thx for them)

PS: actually someone could even argue due to the lack of stewards and reallife consequences that it might not be the best to always avoid those accidents if someone drives like an idiot or repeatedly makes stupid mistakes. I want to quote one more time something from the above posted article out of the Handling Rules Violation section:

Iam not sure if i follow this argument of mine to a full degree. Especially cause it compromises your own race for the sake of educating someone else in the heat of a moment. I just say that it might be something to think about.

 

I'm afraid I'll have to take this remark back as you still don't have a clue what I'm trying to explain to you @stp86.

Also, try to learn some manners. You have an awfull way of communicating. If your driving skills are anything like your communication skills, then that does explain a lot.

 

@Snoeipaard
No idea what you talking about manners. Because i made use of words like "damn"? However, I think its actually the other way round, cause you just ignore everything i say and just keep repeating yourself without clarifying or adding value to your opinions and i think we both should stop here now and let it be.

 

Participating in some real Racing will teach one to get the right attitude when it comes to racing with others. Because it hurts a lot if one thinks rules are everything is my personal experience...I always consider this going online.

 

yes. thank you! as i already said

well, actually when debating the pure fault of an incident we gotta stick to the rules

 

Agreed, my RL experience also, rules aren't everything in racing, smart driving is just as important in the outcome.

Making a dumb decision, that results in an incident, fault will be assigned.
Two cars collide due to both going for the same real estate without obvious incorrect intentions , will be judged as a racing incident, no fault will be assigned.

But,... when assigning fault, rules are the bottom line.

 

Just to add to the conversation, i'd rather race safely and with common sense than by the rules. I don't expect the majority of the online racers to know the rules.
So even on this thread if you might have not been at fault according to the rules there might still be things you could have done better knowing this is simracing by amateurs.
Never expect people to know the rules here (should they, maybe), because really nobody read the rules handbook.

So just try to keep yourself on the safe side, i think if you just try to follow the rules in this game you might find yourself in trouble much too often.

So yes officially someone might be at fault according to the rules, but that doesn't mean the other driver couldn't have handled the situation better.

 

Ok guys. I think i might have been to fast. Gonna take it slower next time . My apologies!
So long.

 

What do you think? https://clips.twitch.tv/AlluringHappyBeefSMOrc

 

I think that it looks like malicious intent. Car didn't stall, just stood there in reverse for way too long. The driver wasn't thinking of moving away ASAP, let's put it that way...