Who's at Fault? - Discussing Racecraft and Incidents

if u want to show the other guys point of view, do it in the chase cam as well, its easier to understand what he was doing or not.

I don't think u reading well what he was trying or not to do. Its more because your position on track than his mistake.
I think u slowed down wayyyyyy more than u should because u were affraid of him and u tried to give him space but u kinda didnt in a proper way.
I would blame this more on you for several reasons than to him, but either you or most people wouldnt even read the explanation of why, so i guess its not worth a try, but let me be stupid a little bit:

U saw him, and u are not sure if he is going to try anything or not. and he is not behind u but kinda in a position to send it, looks like it, so what u do ?
U start turning in as if u didnt care he was there, like if to hit the apex, but mid way u decide nahhhhh im gona give him space and so u dont hit the apex and u not going wide and u already slowing down a lott with all that indecision,
while him, did the turn already thinking his line through there with u in front, and even being outplace from the normal racing line he toke the amount of speed necessary ( maybe a tiny little bit more to do what he was trying),
and hit you because u shouldnt be there anymore.

So looking into what we can see , he didnt try divebomb u, not even close. from what i can tell he even brake before u did, exactly to give u the track to do as u wish.
And you tried to hit an apex that u didn't hit, and slowed down way to much when u should have been on throtle way sooner, that would make his move a normal move.

And before saying "ohhhhh but i'm ahaed of him, i have all the rights in the world, he must be the one carefull".

Man its a race, the guy in front of you do a mistake. should he try to move out of the way from u behind, or should he try to get in front of u to block ?
If u wanted to give him room u need to go wider at the entry, make the turn more rounded instaed of a line as we do alone. And u wouldn't lose time with that , not even a bit. And would have been safer for everyone.


But yeah i could give more examples and explanations but the outtake its going to be the same.

So, i would put this more on the car in front than the one behind.

edit: I have to add this. Pick a line and stick to it. in the video u are everywhere and nowhere in the track u know what i mean ?

Grrr one more thing had u hit the apex, and he bumped u from behind, would have been his fault. Even if u where slower than u should been .

 

I think you caught him out with your indecision. The line was yours as he had no overlap so you should have committed and turned in on the racing line. If he divebombed and hit you that would be on him. He probably anticipated you taking the racing line and therefore went in at his normal speed only to find you going too slow for him to react and keep the car from spinning.

I'd say this was a racing incident as neither driver was malicious or deliberate and both wanted to avoid contact.

 

No question, really: Lambo carries too much speed and loses the rear when he tries to take a tighter line - the touch is just the icing on the cake.

Guys, this is not slamming the door like in other examples - he OPENED a line for the other driver and still got collected by an already spinning car! You cannot possibly pin that on him...

 

I'm not pinning it on him

 

Are we watching the same video? I brake at the normal braking point the normal amount you would brake but I leave him a car width on the inside. Where would you like me to go, the woods? If he broke at the proper time (around the 100 marker) he would have made that turn and been side by side with me, instead he was sideways through there trying to angry bang me out of the way for god knows what reason.

I'm everywhere? Again can you rewatch the video again? I take a smooth curve and leave a lane. We ARE still racing this guy is not lapping me, and no I didn't even vaguely move toward the apex, I lined up for the next turn so I wouldn't run over the curbing. No he didn't brake before I did, if he would have he wouldn't have been sideways coming out of the corner bouncing off of me.

I disagree, if he had went his normal speed then he would have made the corner, he had the lane I gave him plenty of room, he was clearly too fast if he was losing the rearend right there.

Either explanation though this guy then went and kicked me from the race for this. I hate racing with 5 year olds, but when your schedule doesn't lend to league racing you end up in public lobbies.

 

I think he was going his normal speed, the problem was it would have taken him onto the kerb where you were, so he lifted off whilst on the limit inducing oversteer. I'm not blaming you or him it was two people who misread each other, no blame on either.

I didn't comment on the kicking as I didn't think it needed commenting on.

 

I still disagree on the premise of, I am still ahead of him, we are still racing, he made a mistake going into the turn despite being given the lane (no reason to slam the door we are racing for like 6th place). He misjudged the turn maybe assuming I was going to capitulate. But being he is not lapping a car but racing them for position that is a really bad assumption to make as a racing driver. He should have been accelerating or at least modulating throttle at that transition point in the turn, it is way too tight to be "on the limit" there.

Blame lands clearly on the person who entered the turn too hot and lost control. He never ever was going to make that corner whether I was there or not. Not at that speed.

 

You are assuming he made a mistake all on his own, I'm saying you were taking an odd line which means you ended up going slow on the racing line (between the two corners).
It was well intentioned but when he realized, he had to lift , that's what caused the loss of control.
Anyway that's my take on it.

It's a bit like someone doing 40 in the outside lane on a motorway and swearing they had nothing to do with the pileup behind them. If you do something unexpected you catch people out, (even if you perceive what you are doing as being the safe thing to do).

 

Except that had I been on the racing line and taken the corner normally he would have hit me earlier. He had plenty of room to take the turn he had no spatial awareness. He needs to account for another car BEING THERE. Its like the people who cause a pileup in T1 of the race, you can't brake at your normal marker when there are other cars all around you. If I cut in front of him or swept to the right then you'd have a point, but I didn't, I left him a lane on the turn, maintained my line by staying on track, and I didn't even overslow. I was going nearly as fast as I would have been had I not left him room. He got overzealous in his initial attack.

If I had been him and given the room I gave him I would have had no problem turning in and at least running alongside the leading car. I've done what feels like a billion laps at spa and going through that turn against another driver with mutual respect goes like that every time. When I race against clueless assclowns like this guy, no matter what you do a pass ends in a wreck.

 

It's been 18 months or so since I last commented here but I do continue to float around the forum as it provides some good entertainment and mediocrity in todays WuFlu ridden times.
@Rogue Leader This is a good example of why I don't sim race on-line anymore. You made a decision in an effort to avoid an accident by keeping to your outside line. You could see that your opponent (The Lambo driver) was travelling too quickly to make the turn and this is exactly what transpired. This puts you at risk though because when he inevitably loses it you are in the line of fire. I assume that you did not have the possibility to defend on the inside line which would have meant him losing it on the outside line and in all probability (physics etc.. ) spinning away from you.

Sadly it seems you tangled with one of the server admins who spat his dummy out and kicked you. Unlucky dude, you did nothing wrong IMO

 

If simply discussing,... "who's at fault", not the whys.

I still go with the concept of who made the mistake,... is at fault, incompetence, "miss read" the victim driver, he ran into, etc., etc,... doesn't matter.

100% on the driver who made the mistake, if the victim did nothing wrong, left racing room etc.

A little off subject here,... Every time I hear the statement on the media regarding an "accident" on the streets,... "the driver lost control of their car", I want to smack somebody.
Do they have to find it, before they are allowed to drive again ?

I feel better now,... so back to regularly scheduled programming

 

I'll leave it there I think.

 

TBH crap like this is why when I go into a server and the majority of the drivers aren't Pro rated I leave. In this case however it was late at night and pickings were slim and I wanted to get one more race in, I paid for it in SA. The guy who hit me was silver rated. I know the driver ratings can be manipulated a bit, and that even pro rated drivers can drive like crap too (encountered plenty), but in general running a race with mostly Pro rated ones ends with very little T1 nonsense, and very little of crap like this, but just good clean side by side racing and wrecks that are legit mistakes not stupidity.

To add more context I had lifted a bit in Eau Rouge as I screwed the entry a bit so he was coming up behind me quickly however he was also erratic, I could see it in my mirrors that he was moving left and right for some reason but was still a good bit behind me. Nowhere near close enough to mount a clean pass on me. Once I hit the brakes I could see he was not braking yet where he should be to make the turn so I assumed either he was gonna blast me from behind or he was out of control, or maybe by dumb luck he was gonna make it so I'd leave a lane. Looking at it afterwards had I taken the normal line he would have just rearended me.

 

Lambo at fault.

But it baffles me how someone could blame the Porsche...
- He didn't brake check
- If he took his regular line, he would've been hit from behind
- Even if his brake point was somewhere else, he wouldn't be the one to blame. Otherwise you wouldn't be allowed to save tires, brake pads, fuel... f.e. I don't think Nick Tandy was taking his regular braking points in the final minutes of the 24h of Spa 2020 when his gearbox was giving up and losing oil while being attacked by Audi.

 

I'm surprised there's any debate. The Lambo didn't make the corner. He wasn't going to make the corner. I don't see how the blame can go on the car in front, no matter what kind of etiquette may have been expected it's up to the Lambo to avoid t crashing into the car in front. The Porsche did nothing to encourage the crash.

 

One thing I will say is the main person whom puts the blame on me is the person who posts in here about his crashes which are almost always clearly his fault, and yet he never believes they are. The other person I guess agrees with me now.

The main argument being used is that I basically always should be on the exact racing line. Except there is no such thing as the exact line. You can early apex, you can late apex, you could be saving fuel, or brakes, or tires, or your tires could be going away. As a racing driver you need to anticipate the guy ahead could be doing one or more of those things. Sure if someone does something nuts like changing lanes mid corner that is a bad idea. Thats not even vaguely what I did.

I mean this is how racing actually works, I've literally been doing it IRL over 20 years to no complaints, or ridiculous crashes caused by me doing something dumb.

 

A lot of people can't stay on the racing line even when they're trying too. If you had been on the racing line it would have only lead to a worse accident. You had almost avoided the accident altogether by leaving space, you were unlucky to get caught at all.

I'll be the first to throw blame at the victim of an accident for playing their roll in an accident due to poor driving standards, but I can't see how you could have done any more to avoid the accident in this scenario.

 

Just watched the Porsche and Lambo, and there is really only room to blame the Lambo. Not sure if they were meaning to divebomb or just missed their brake marker in the dark, but either way they weren't in a good spot to make the corner. Personally if I was in your shoes (assuming you knew they were too hot on entry) I'd have tried to turn in early for the Apex and hopefully have them go around me off track on the left instead of bouncing off my right door, but it worked out for you anyway. Unfair to kick you, but bad hosts are bad hosts.

 

So, today's "Who's at fault" is starring "me" as the answer.

This happened last saturday, when I enjoyed a whole evening driving GT4's only. The evening was very enjoyable, even with a Monza race that I managed to win after a close battle, but not a single OBWP.

Then this race started.

• 0:49 Right after the start, when turning the wheel for the exit of T1, I accidentally activated the pit limiter with my thumb. Luckily, the guys behind me were busy with themselves, so nobody rear-ended me before I understood the issue and deactiveated the limiter. But without that mishap I would have had more breathing room when arriving at T2…
• 1:14 Ta-daaaaah, here's your punt, you're welcome! From that incident on I struggled with an unstable rear end, but the damage was not bad enough to pit. I eventually had to give up the first place for B. Beard, but second place still looked manageable. Until…
• 7:49 I saw that a backmarker must have had an spin, leaving him across the direction of travel. I watched B. Beard slipping past his front very tightly, and as I anticipated the guy would go forward, I decided to pass him by his back.
  Bad decision. Very bad decision.
• 7:50 At the same moment, the Merc driver decided to reverse, maybe under the impression of Beard passing him so close.

To be honest, I was furious and rage quitted shortly after. But I have to admit: This was all my fault. Keeping the pedal to the metal when double yellows are waved and obviously someone is stranded right in the middle of the track is the dumbest thing to do.

 

This is no fun if there is a foregone conclusion...

Not that you chose a particularly good camera angle to show your incidents for us to really conclude something (except the last). Both you and the backmarker are to blame - yes, you should have backed off, but he shouldn't have moved. I know full well you might have been rearended by someone behind you if you had braked and someone eventually would have collected him had he remained motionless, but at least you would have made it past him if he didn't throw the car into reverse.