Driving Technique Discussion

I don't struggle for turn in, but I still think I'm braking to heavily (hence the blue live indicator). What makes me understeer is moving my brake point deeper, so I end up moving it back.

This is an interesting question and really cuts to the heart of what I'm trying to figure out. I guess I don't actually feel like I'm at the limit, but I'm braking at the usual reference points and hammering the brake. I feel like I should be, but something's clearly missing and I might just need a little education.

I heard somewhere (in amongst all the varied advice) that braking late and hard is better, otherwise your wasting time. But I think there's more to be made of adapting my braking for each corner. Last night I saw a video of Dave Perel irl and this one had the brake inputs as well as throttle. I noticed he doesn't often go hard on the brake, sometimes only 60%, sometimes less.

 

Don't make the mistake of comparing real car telemetry with sim telemetry. You don't know what the max of the bar in the video means, only that he didn't press the pedal to that value. You want maximum deceleration the tyres will allow - when you're in a straight line at high speed, that should be max in the sim. In every other situation, you need to "feel" how much you can brake. That loss is fluid, not sudden, so it can be hard to find peak performance.

 

Damn, now you say that I do remember reading it somewhere before as well.

Okay, I'll just have to grind it out and see if I can please CC a little more. I'll play with different levels of braking on different turns and see how that goes. I've increased the BRF setting on my CSL Elite to give me more resolution, that should help.

Thanks

 

I preferred to start a new thread instead of asking it in driving techniques in the hope that i can start a track specific (track guides style) category.


I am about to finish practicing ACC tracks and this is the one before last. Normally when I start to learn a new track, i manage to reduce gap against the track record to 6-7 sec. I usually hit a wall around 4-5 sec and improve further to 1.5-2 secs gap when i find the limiting behavior.

I hit that wall in Bathurst around 13 secs. Manage to improve it to 10. I watched several track guides and my line seems OK. Compared my data with a top driver data i found. Break points and durations are almost identical. Only brake pressure is slightly lower in a few places. What surprised me is, In the comparison lap, he was almost always 1 gear higher than me and as result faster.

The season was set to 2020 and suspected a different tire sets and BOP is applicable for 488 evo than the data and videos i am looking at but i do not think that is the issue. (after a tire model change in PC2 all lap times got worse several secs and deemed leaderboards and user setups useless)

By no means i am good or my line is perfect. i am aware of that. I feel like i am missing something here more than the racing line. I just need few general tips to keep the car in better line and higher speed. Obviously, I am too far from asking for suggestion to a specific corner.

I wonder how you manage to keep higher gear especially after the first sharp turn in the beginning of the climb. I feel like engine will stall if i do not downshift to 1. Same with the curve at the top of the hill. Instead of break i try to control the pace and balance with throttle and i feel like i am at the limit . Slightly higher throttle; let alone higher gear, and ı either spin or crush to the side walls.

Any suggestions?

 

Of course, from your text alone, it is difficult to tell where you really struggle. But, as you asked for some general tips, here is what i believe is important at Bathurst.

Like on every track, it is important to use the whole trackwidth. This means getting as close to the walls as possible. It takes some practice and maybe a lot of crashes until you get there, depending on your approach. Personally, I think Bathurst is more suited to the 'classical' working up to the limit approach rather than the working down to the limit approach sim racers often tend to prefer. This should result in less crashes and therefore less frustration.

From what you have written, I am guessing, you are a little slow through the corners. Therefore, you are prefering lower gears. At Bathurst it is important to work with the topography of the track. A lot of corners are cambered or have some dips that can be used to your advantage. Finding and nailing these means you can carry a lot more speed than you might initially think.
The corner you are referring to at the start of the climb (Turn 4 - The Cutting) actually is a great example for that. Getting close to the inside wall allows you both to carry much more speed inside the corner and also to start accelerating a lot sooner.

Lastly, Bathurst is a great flowing track. You need commitment and flow to be fast. What I think prevents flow for a lot of people is what I like to call 'overbraking'. Basically, you try to brake as late as possible but forget to release the brake when starting to turn in, because your mind thinks "Oh no, I am way too fast for that corner", which results in the car being too slow and also not wanting to turn in. So, trailbraking and training your mind to allow faster speeds is quite important as well. In general, learning to balance the car with brake and throttle smoothly is very beneficial and should increase the flow. For example, from Turn 4 all the way up the hill through turn 10 you shouldn't have to use the brake at all, just lifting the throttle for some of the turns will be enough to load the front and turn the car in.

 

For bathurst first corner going up the hill, I found you need to coast to the apex (I'm in 720) in 2nd and then put down power when you can. I used to brake into the corner and go to 1st, then power out, but the other way is so much faster.
I've found that higher gear with lower revs might give you slightly lower accel, it gives more stability in the exit of low speed corners as you don't get wheelspin. This means (to me), you can have lower TC setting, which helps for all other corner exits.
Other thing I've found with the mountain of death going up the hill and slow corners is that the low rev higher gear avoids sliding during the corners and if you get a bump, it avoids a big race ending slide.

I can hit high 2:03 in qualy, then calm down to low 2:06 for a race that I can maintain for a 1hr race.
I could probably push and get high 2:04's in a race, but I get too close to the walls or slightly sideways when braking for skyline / forest elbow, and with my skill level I can get away with that 2 out of 10 times.

C#27 has great advice. I know purposely I don't commit as much as I should to get a faster time.

 

I practice for two hours now and managed to reduce it to 2:08.500s. My optimal calculated as 2:05.600. Comparing to others, my section2 is 5 secs slower. In a few laps i almost did not use brakes at all but coasted during the last chicanes downhill before the straight. Compared to my best laps those were almost 3 sec faster. I need to learn how to replicate it every time.

I experimented a lot for this one. If i follow the guides and start braking during the strait i can not exit with 2nd gear. Instead, just like you mentioned, i push the throttle hard one last time (4th gear) at this point and start to coast until the corner appears. Then very short trail brake and shift down to 2nd. Almost 0.9 sec gain just at the exit point 1.4 sec when i get to the top. Thankfully i can replicate that.

I was not aware of this. Maybe this was the reason i was faster during the downhill sections i mentioned above.

I realized that. Every lap, ı go through "what hell happened now?" moments several times. I felt like i was trying to find solution to a maze puzzle.

Indeed. Definitely frustrating until you realize you need to get out of your comfort zone and change your style. As i mentioned in my first post i figured out not to use brakes over the hill section very early on but now i am realizing that i need to reduce or totally avoid braking in the other sections too. Frustration slightly turning in to joy of discoveries.

If you read my other posts, i recently upgrade my rig with Fanatec but maybe because of driver issues, i could not set pedals and wheel strength right for some time. Only for the last few days i feel a bit more comfortable. My left foot is now re-learning the trail braking. But the brake pedal s not the main problem but the mindset which needs to feel the flow as you mentioned.

Thanks to both of you. Very good advices that i was looking for.

 

How I handle that first sharp left hander is all done before it.
After the main straight and the right hander - full throttle (4th gear for me) until just after the left hand kink (full fuel I coast through this apex). After the apex I straighten up and lightly apply the brakes (60-70%) down to 2nd and drift to the right wall. When I feel I'm slow enough and then release pressure until I release just before my turn in to the sharp left hander uphill.
Hug the Apex to this corner while coasting (as C#27 said) and put down power as early as you can. If you are too fast or too early you will understeer into the wall and have to lift. All this depends on fuel / tires, etc.
I usually shift early to 3rd when my lights go blue (7300 while normally I shift around 7600) to avoid wheelspin.

Motec really helps with comparing laps.
If you have a replay to share (behind the wheel view) experienced people can critique it.
I personally use RST in addition to Motec for data. It has great tools. It also has a sub model ($3) where you get setups and alien data to compare your data to.
I believe for 720 at bathurst the laptime is sub 2min, but its nice to see the braking points, accel points, etc.
My initial mindset has been to brake late, trail, then accel early. The data from RST showed me that on some corners (like this one), coasting gives you the stability and speed compared to trail braking into the corner. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but one aspect on going faster is confidence in the cars stability.

Bathurst is a track that I prefer to race at 90% (or lower) of my ability since its so unforgiving. Its not the fastest way and I'm sure with confidence that I can repeat the same lines & braking points, I'll start to move them braking points backwards to get the speed up.

Sharing a replay is a great way to improve.

 

I've been trying to get back into ACC, but it's very disheartening to say the least. Granted, I havent done tons of laps in my "come back" - I already put it lots of laps earlier but I wasnt getting any faster so I simply gave up back then.

I've been racing since Microprose games and Indy 500 on the Amiga, then into GPL and beyond. Particularly in GPL I could make use of great consistency at relatively fast times, but in ACC it's impossible cause 80% of the online racers are that much faster than me that consistency doesn't make up for it.

Just to give you an idea on how slow I am: people are faster than me approaching Eau Rougue. People brake later than me too, so even if they're 1 sec behind approaching Eau Rougue, most will simply outbrake me.
I dont fare well in the corners either. At tracks like Spa and Silverstone people will literally pass me either left or right - it's at their choice. If I defend the inside, they will pass me on the oustside and vice versa. I simply have no defense.

I know absolutely nothing about car setup - back in the GPL days I used to download other peoples setups (especially Alisons if anyone remembers), but in every other titles since I simply go for default. In ACC I've been trying 'Aggressive' and 'Safe". I feel I'm about as fast with the Safe setup as I am with the aggressive. I've tried Ferrari, Bentley, Nissan and Lexus, but I seem to be just as fast/slow in all of them. Nissan is still preferred choice.

I would post a replay video, but I feel I'm missing something in general. I hit brake as late as I possibly can, I hit apexes, I get good exists making use of the track available, but still I'm usually 5 seconds off the pace in online racing. It's quite disheartening...

What to do? Just hammer more laps? I've been hammering laps since Microprose GP1 in 1992...

 

Amendment: here's a hotlap at Spa...this is a clean lap and I'm usually at around 2:24 or thereabouts when racing online.

 

^ was that with the safe setup?

First thing I'd do is adjust tyre pressures so you are around 27.7 hot after 2-3 laps. Turn down the TC and ABS, TC especially is restricting your corner exits. You seem to be shifting up quite early and in the corners you often have an overlap of throttle and brake which is surprising given you're driving a front engined car. Overall it looks like you're not trusting the amount of grip available. Eau Rouge is either flat or a slight breath on the throttle, you shouldn't be braking for it. Blanchimont is always flat in the dry.

Edit: Just done a quick test myself in the Nissan. Track temps 29/34, 9am practice, clear weather, fast track. Using the aggressive preset (with no changes) I did a 22:1 on my second flying lap. Everything I said stands although Blanchimont is tricky flat in the Nissan as it appears to have quite a lot of understeer there compared with the car I normally drive (Porsche). Note I'm not a fast driver by any means and this was a quick and dirty test. Loads more time than this on the table.

 

and a video for good measure - this lap was a 2:20:6xx set with 27/27C temps and adjusted tyre pressures. Sector times (rounded to nearest tenth) 41:6 | 1:10:9 | 37:2

 

Ok, wow...I did like you suggested and turned down both TC and ABS two notches each and I did a confirmed 2:23.8xx in an online race (fast track, 30 degrees). Most awesome Very last lap I think I did 2:23.6xx but that last summary screen pops up so fast you cant even catch your last lap...most awesome still

I didnt touch tire settings cause I really wouldnt know what to do in order to increase or decrease temps. But atleast now we're talking Many thanks for taking your time to reply. Much obliged...

 

unless I´m mistaken optimum tyre pressure is between 27-28 psi.
Just enter your setup and cranck up a bit the tyre pressures because they are showing numbers on the low side. Stick to practice or a controlled enviroment for this, you can´t use the same tyre pressure settings setup for a 14h race than for a midnight race. Notice how air and track temperature play a massive role on car behaviour.

 

and as a rule of thumb, drive three decent laps and observe tyre readings to fine tune your setup. 3 consistent, good laps, with no sliding or crashing. Also avoid kerbs when pressures are low, like in your out lap from boxes. A soft, cold, low pressure tyre, running over kerbs, will vibrate and deform a lot, causing even LOWER pressures.

Youtube could help:

 

Try ACC Race Engineer for determining tire temps and fuel requirements. Available here in the Tools Forum and works a treat.

 

Would it be possible to translate Motec telemetry data into something ACC could use to create a ghost for better practice? Motec is helpful, but being able to actually drive with a faster/more skilled ghost in exact conditions/setup would be great for learning and honing skills. I'm imagining a feature within ACC to "Input Ghost" based on Motec information. Top drivers could share Motec information (Coach Dave Academy includes Motec files with their setups). Ideas/thoughts?

 

It is a lot easier to just copy the ghost file, so sharing it with the motec download of the fastest lap

 

Not sure I understand this suggestion. Can you explain?

 

They hotlap ghost files are stored within Documents\Assetto Corsa Competizione\GhostCars. So technically, you could share them, just like setups.