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Ffb damper and it's effects?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat Room' started by tommi karsikas, Oct 16, 2015.

  1. In a real car you feel immediately, when you turn the steering wheel even slightly, the resistance from tires and forces which makes the car want to go straight with the mass instead of where the tires are pointing.
    Another example when wheel is straight and the midwheel needs to react promptly with enough force is in oversteer situations, the immediate effect of the steering wheel going light to the direction of opposite lock is a big reason why people have such a hard time catching even the smallest slips.

    Damper being a constant force does help with the deadzone issues, I do not know what values you should have in assettocorsa.ini, but that is definitely worth figuring that out.
    Even in T500rs, little bit of damper is good for those reasons mentioned above. The wheel gets more realistic center, you just need to adjust it with feel, there is no meter for it and if you use too much damper, you will lose FFB detail.
     
    Silhuette likes this.
  2. Silhuette

    Silhuette Gamer

    Yes I know that G27 have a little dead center feel because the way it's engineered, but I don't get it how in gt3 class cars feels very nice and on old dtm cars like merc or alfa have 1/3 wheel turn have no FFB. This means that it's not hardware limitation. I know that all car classes have different feel on wheel and that's amazing, but I doubt that dtm class had such behavior, after all they are professional race cars. If I'm correct on 1.3 update and introducing v5 tyres model, ffb in some car classes was way better... I can't confirm that because I don't have 1.3 ver of game anymore and maybe it's just placebo .

    @tommi karsikas
    I know that this isn't logitech support thread and I'm sorry for hijacking it but I'v tried Lord Kunos all 100 settings abd that doesn't help... Maybe some other combination if FF tweaks could help.
     
    PuffTheMagicBelgian likes this.
  3. liakjim

    liakjim Alien

    Is it minimum force suppose to fix that?
     
    Thomas Cameron likes this.
  4. liakjim

    liakjim Alien

    Some thoughts i had. If it wasn't for @tommi karsikas (thanks BTW) , i would have had a fundamental aspect of FFB wrong.
    And i am a guy, who has watched all stream by @Lord Kunos , i read forum daily, i even bought a book about this game ( http://www.amazon.com/Going-Nowhere-Assetto-Corsa-2015-10-25-ebook/dp/B00NS918M4 ).
    So i am not the actual average player. Far from a physics guru but still i even wrote a guide in Greek for our local forum.
    Still i got this wrong.

    So some questions/suggestions :

    1. Why does user has to alter some values in a ini file? Most users will probably don't know that such files exists ( or even to find it).
    2. Why there isn't the Damping gain in UI's controller options? It was there.
    3. Why there is not a Damping min level slider in UI's controller options?
    4. Same goes to GYRO effect. It can go to UI as an option. It's working excellent for G27, it would be a shame for users to not know it's existence.
    5. If there is a need to keep UI simple, why there isn't a guide by a dev about these things, maybe here or even better on game's page in steam ( where it will probably seen by more eyes) .
    P.S. Reading again my text, it seems to have a hostile tone. On the contrary they are some super friendly thoughts by a guy that wants the best of this game.
    I strongly believe that it is a shame that one of the strongest aspect of this game, FFB, is not to best used by all people even those who has minimum knowledge or free time.
    (most people i believe play with their wheels clipping but this is another issue).
     
  5. Mogster

    Mogster Alien

    I think you can have too many options available, it leads to confusion. Unlike most other driving sims/games AC's FFB works very well out of the box. I've tweaked a couple of values but otherwise I just change gain per car and that's it.

    Gyro, increase understeer, soft lock mustn't be seen as ready for prime time. If people want to play with them then you can enable them by tweaking files, it's not difficult. For new users though it's better if they don't enable WIP stuff.
     
    Quffy likes this.
  6. Thomas Cameron

    Thomas Cameron Simracer

    Yes it does afaik its around 16 for that wheel @Atle Dreier is the man for that though.

    Cheers
     
  7. A couple of reasons. The first is that, being damper an effect implemented in hardware/driver I have no control on it whatsoever, so the expected result is unknown. For this reason the damper was "relegated" to simple effect when the car is not moving. Because of this it is not an essential element of the driving experience and has been moved out from the GUI. The normal AC user shouldn't even KNOW about this, things should just work out of the box... at least that's our approach to FF... there are already WAAAY too many options in there already for my taste... it gives the impression to users that you NEED to tweak stuff in order to get something good, which is, simply, not true at all.
    As I said in my post above, the 2 settings have been added later to accommodate users that experienced problems with very unusual hardware config.
    Other features are clearly experimental and we have no commitment to support them at the moment.
    In other words, INI values are a message to say "use at your own risk, and do not expect this to be supported".
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2016
  8. Atle Dreier

    Atle Dreier Alien

    Some cars have that slightly dead feel around center, and no amount of minff will help. That's just the nature of some of the cars.

    Regarding the gyro, I was told by Aris that the majority of beta testers didn't like the gyro effect, only the ones with dd wheels, so the devs decided to make it an ini file option. Most people with dd wheels will be enthusiasts that know their way around ini files.

    Sent fra min SM-N910F via Tapatalk
     
    Glaurung likes this.
  9. Mogster

    Mogster Alien

    You can't expect a 60s GT or touring car to have steering as direct as a modern GT3.

    With my G25 the steering on the older cars is softer around the centre than the modern stuff but compared to other sims I don't feel a significant dead zone.
     
  10. I partially agree with you but I also can see the reasons why these are in the ini-files. Still I'd like to see some documentation somewhere in the forums regarding all of these 'hidden functionalities' in AC.

    Also it's a bit frustrating that you have to mess with the ini's after every update because the file will be replaced.
     
    PuffTheMagicBelgian and Glaurung like this.
  11. Tberg

    Tberg Alien

    About ffb, softlock and not having too many options, which I believe is the right way to go, then:
    • Can/should softlock not be ON by default?
    • can the effect be changed, so it works the same as when you input DOR in hardware driver?
    • Could/should the general FFB be more pronounced in simulating difference between non-power and powersteering?
    The last point could be damper related thing, f.i modern powersteering still make the wheel light as a feather when car is standing still, and also feels the same when turning at higher speeds. Could be damper gain at zero/low for powersteer cars, combined by dynamic FFB gain control, much like a compressor works on sound: limits the signal at a given threshold, but does not clip it.

    To back up the feel I get from game:
    Car like 458 feels great at lower/drift speeds, but the ffb power gain when you go fast and turn gets exaggerated, the car becomes heavier and tyres felt strongly. Should feel more equal at different speeds, no?
    I like how the ffb as is works on cars that pressumeably doesn't have powersteer.

    Would "powersteer" simulation break the immersion of G forces and weight of the car?

    Best,
    T
     
    le pargo likes this.
  12. Silhuette

    Silhuette Gamer

    Yeah, I don't agree completely with your opinion... My friend have old merc 124d, I drove that car and car doesn't have soft center, I'v also drove new E class 2014 model which have softer wheel then the old car. I can't pretend that I know how Gt3 class or even old DTM class feels in driving because I never drove something like that, but it is hard to believe that those machines aren't optimized for ultimate driving experience. But it's not only old DTM cars that suffers from dead center, I'v felt it in Ferrari Gt2 too, on other hand P1 feels unbelievable good or old F1 cars. I don't want to beat dead horse, just wanna drove attention to that some car classes have slightly FFB problem, of course IMO. This is my last post about this topic....
     
  13. Just use JSGME for any modified file you got, from weather, pp, to assettocorsa.ini. There is freecam, dev apps etc... in that file, so it's definitely worth while.

    @Silhuette just put minforce somewhere around 15% and turn on damper from profile, test, and if still not improvement, turn up the DAMPER_MIN_LEVEL and DAMPER_GAIN from assettocorsa.ini and test again.
    Those two things are pretty much all you can do.
     
    Nahkamarakatti likes this.
    • Can/should softlock not be ON by default?
    Nope. It's an ugly thing that could be pretty dangerous with some wheels.
    • can the effect be changed, so it works the same as when you input DOR in hardware driver?
    I don't understand the question.
    • Could/should the general FFB be more pronounced in simulating difference between non-power and powersteering?
    In theory yes, in pratice no. The typical consumer wheel doesn't have enough torque to conver all the range, so if we calibrate the "max" at a Lotus 72 levels the resulting torque for a car with power steering would be so low that most will think the FF is off.
    Nice idea in the fantasy world where all the users will have unlimited power in their wheels, not such a good idea in the real world of cheap wheels. So what we do is try to maximize the range of the force in the available 0-100% range.
     
  14. Tberg

    Tberg Alien


    I understand your reasons. About the softlock effect, not sure how it feels on G27 as I haven´t used mine in 2 years, but on CSW it´s a hard "knock-back" effect when you reach lock. So if for example drifting cars with lower DOR than 900, lock is often reached, unintentional or not, and this effect is violent if you do not have a firm grip on the rim. Now, if we use the DOR in the hardware driver or SEN setting, when reaching lock, the effect is smooth and just stops the wheel. Of cause it can still be forced to go further, but the softlock here is much less violent behaving. It will be awesome if the AC softlock option could work in similar way. Is it not possible to let AC control driver DOR, just like fanaleds do? Hope this gives meaning.


    Best,
    T
     
    ears1991 likes this.
  15. ears1991

    ears1991 Alien

    indeed, it is the same on g27, hard knock back with the ac setting, and smooth stop with the driver configured limit.

    i think pcars implementation feels v similar to or the same as the driver one, but might be wrong, havent tried in ages EDIT: OK was wrong about this
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2016
  16. pCars DOR was working exactly like the AC one atleast in 1.0. Not sure have they already fixed it.

    This is how it worked back then:


    Softlock could be enabled by default if it's not full 100% spring force once the dor limit is reached. You have to smoothen the limit if you wanna do it properly.
     
    ears1991 likes this.
  17. Tberg

    Tberg Alien

    ^^
    Yes, it´s that behavior, it´s very annoying :)
     
  18. Adjustable Soft Lock gain is enough to make it work perfectly in DiRT Rally. Can't see a reason why it wouldn't work in AC too.

    I know you don't like complexity too much but that would be a really good add-on since the current implementation makes it a bit pointless for many many people.
     
    Andy-R, Jebus and Tberg like this.
  19. Tberg

    Tberg Alien


    Indeed, it's not working well, a lot of us turn it off again and either leave it waiting for a working solution or go back to DOR lists.
     
    ACgt1 and Thomas Cameron like this.
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