Generic FFB on Project Cars 2

Hello

I would really love to hear what @Lord Kunos things of the FFB in Project Cars 2.
There is a huge debate on SMS forum regarding this matter where people think the FFB is not as good as AC.

 

i dont think he will tell u anything about any other game , but i can tell u , i got both games and Pcars2 is not even near Ac Physics or FFB , but pcars2 is a good improvement from pcars1

 

As it stands Assetto Corsa is certainly superior to PCars2 in FFB. I have heard very good things about the new PCars2 update though. When it arrives on console we will see, but as good as it is currently, it is no Assetto Corsa. Some cars are terrific while others are a bit lifeless.

Regardless, I am having huge fun with both of them.

 

The FFB is all over the place in PC2. If you tweak the settings so that it feels right on one car and then go and drive something different, like a kart, its awful. The FFB in Assetto feels much better and I never need to tweak it between cars.

 

PC2 FFB is lively enough for me in terms of surface detail on tracks that feature it but, some of the effects are strange and seem disconnected from what we get in FFB with other titles such as AC / AMS / rF2. Grip-loss feel is almost non-existent, suspension and curb feel does not result in the effects I'd expect and transitions from banked curves to aprons have no effect on steering feel. It results in the FFB feeling rather "canned" to me and quite some way from being on-par with the other titles I referenced.

 

exactly

 

Add to that, the audio being so out of balance on certain cars where I can't even hear the tires and it becomes rather frustrating but, at least that should be a solvable issue; the FFB, I doubt it will change much.

 

actually the key-point for me is the tyre slip effect along with the audio which are always in sync, I cannot get this feeling on PC2.

 

The quality in FFB in this title varies heavily on car and track choice.

 

Interestingly, I swapped to my other wheel today - the AccuForce; the results were surprising. Under-steer feel was improved in most of the cars that I tried but, while a car such as the Caterham SP300R could run with 70% Tone and still have front grip-loss effects felt, others needed to be below 50% Tone or the effects would be clipping / not felt.

PC2-FFB seems to favor the AccuForce over the OSW-SimuCube and it shines a new light on PC2 FFB. Some of the effects, curb-pull and angular transitions are still quite weak for my liking but, they are present. For whatever reason, I couldn't feel them with the OSW. Overall, PC2 FFB is much more enjoyable using the AccuForce and I have a better sense of what the car is doing now.

 

I haven't played it since the new patch, but after about 5-8 hours of trying to get a decent FFB feel I gave up. If I could have simply turned it off and just get a centering/dampening setting working I would have continued (Fanatec V2 base). The FFB in PC2 in general is just awful unless you download files and fiddle for ages. The developers believe it's awesome and the internet says so, which I find odd since a quick google search reveals something different. Then as you suggest if you switch cars it's a whole new experience and thus you must rinse and repeat. It's nonsense and a waste of time with other much better titles (raceroom, assetto, iracing, rf2). It literally feels like different teams were producing different cars and no one was communicating with anyone.

I think they spent the money on the GT3 series of the game - It has the best of their tire models (still crazy sticky), the FFB you can get to a point where it's decent, the sound is reasonably consistent. However, for anyone who thinks this is a good sim - Load up a road car (z06 or the nissan GTR), then use their default FFB (any one of their settings).. please let me know what the hell it thinks it's communicating through the wheel. I've never had to fight so hard just to keep the wheel centered. It's an exhausting battle, coupled with tire physics that are so insanely bad I wonder if it was ever tested, the sound ... I'll stop.. It's horrible.. just horrible.

nathan

 

Like the love of your life, sometime it is only you that sees the beauty.

edit I do not own PC2, I have AC... D'uh!

edit of edit: Not that I wouldn't be willing to try it out, I just don't own it. I tried PC1, that wasn't much kop. PC2 seems be be equally hyped. That's all.

 

Like it or not, FFB is subjective, so there is no "best". The only objective measure of FFB would be how accurately it models the forces felt through an actual car's steering wheel, but personally, I wouldn't want this type of FFB system. The problem is that when you're sitting at your desk, you can't feel the G-forces exerted on the car, because you're sitting still. This means that the game must communication additional information through the FFB. So right from the start, we must accept that "accuracy" is not the gold standard for FFB, because most racers would not prefer it.

If you read Ian Bell's comments on the pCARS 2 forum, it becomes clear that SMS favors this "accuracy" model of FFB. Recently he commented along the lines of "of course the FFB is bad in some cars, because some real cars have pretty horrible steering feedback." Then he went on to point out that he drives a Ferrari and a MkII Escort, continuing that anecdote to bring attention to the fact that the steering feel in the Mk II Escort is far more communicative than the Ferrari.

He's not wrong, of course, but I don't share his views. I do agree that modern, "numb" road cars should consequently lack feeling that you would get from a more communicative car, but I feel that the typical sim racing environment (FFB wheel + pedals + standard cockpit) lacks the necessary components to complete the feeling of immersion. Even "full motion" rigs don't fully simulate the forces involved.

So we're left with a compromise to make. The FFB from a racing simulator must present an augmented and amplified version of "real" steering wheel force. How you balance this compromise, while still maintaining distinction between cars, is what determines the type of FFB you'll implement.

In this regard, pCARS 2 is closer to AC, but they still have their differences. IMO, neither fo them is "wrong", and I every much enjoy racing in both. If I had to pick, I would say that I enjoy the FFB in AC over pCARS 2, but that is strictly subjective.

There is one other thing that I think is worth noting: the fierce rivalry we see demonstrated on the forums does not appear to exist between the developers of these games. I find it a little disappointing that so many people feel they have to disparage another game, just because it's not their preferred option. Anyone who asserts some sort of objectively "better" viewpoint is deluding themselves. As sim racing is entirely about experience, it's about 85% subjective.

 

lol.. we discuss the same topic on 2 different forums @bradleyland at the same time..
I get your point, but in my opinion the slip effect is not a fake effect and in PC2 has not been implemented.
Regarding disparaging other games , that is absolutely fine, we are in a free market, free speech.. ( probably too much freedom) and I will say out loud that the PC2 FFB to me does not work . All these theories about tweaking the setup to feel the tyre slip do not make any sense.

 

I would never seek to prohibit someone from speaking their mind, but I will offer a reasoned rebuttal at every opportunity

I never said the lightness of the steering you've described is fake. It is, however, amplified to varying degrees in simulators. For example, I had an AW11 (1st Gen) Toyota MR2 that was mid-engine and had manual steering and no ABS. When I locked the front tires up, you could spin the steering wheel with one finger. If you pushed the car to understeer, there was a very clear "line" which you would cross. Contrast that with my E92 M3, which has a well-regarded hydraulic steering rack. I could feel understeer in that car, but it wasn't like a light switch (the MR2 was).

Then there's the question of what I am perceiving when I drive each. The question becomes: how much is actual force through the steering wheel versus my perception of force, which is composed of my total body experience. Remember that when you're driving a car, you're not just feeling the forces through the steering rack, you're also bracing your body against the movement of the car. The actual force through the steering rack can be measured, which is the only objective basis for "accuracy". SMS claims that their mechanical and pneumatic trail calculations are "accurate" to real world forces, and I believe them.

Again, the problem is that's not all we perceive when driving a real car. There is no "objectively correct" solution, because we can't simulate g-forces on our body (yet). So the FFB must combine all of this information into one force. Hence, the different preferences. Some people "feel" g-forces differently than others.

 

I believe this is the key-point and it would be nice if other could comment on this.
The main example I made is that if I take any car.. from road car , to GT3 to F1 and I disable ABS and I brake hard , the front will vibrate and I will get that vibration on the steering wheel.
This I believe is what is called slip effect on AC and it really helps understanding if we are over the limit when breaking.
This effect to me is simply physics based on the fact that by locking the tyres , a vibration will be generated and it will be felt on the wheel as tyres ,by not rotating , they will generate a friction with the tarmac ( sorry for my bad english)
On PC2, there is no way to feel this and to me this is simply a lack on the design.

 

Have you tried running a low-tone FFB setup on pCARS 2? I feel much more vibration through the wheel during understeer when I run low tone (which favors Mz [moment force on the z-axis]).

"This I believe is what is called slip effect on AC..."

You're thinking of "Understeer Effect", which is an on/off setting on consoles, and a 0-100 (I think) on PC. This effect amplifies the effects on Mz that are naturally encountered during understeer. It is not a "canned" effect, but rather a change in magnitude as the force is processed by the FFB engine.

 

The slip effect does exist in PC2 FFB but, it's often washed out if the Tone setting is too high. It may be a form of clipping that occurs - one related to those particular details. I feel like that is something quite different with PC2-FFB, it doesn't respond to settings in the same ways as other titles do so it takes more experimentation to get a grasp of how the various adjustments interact. The fact that the ideal FFB settings vary quite a bit from car to car does complicate things a bit more.

 

I have been reading your thread on their forum and totally understand why some people are angry at what you say and how you say it. I wouldn't like somebody to approach things in this forum in that way as well and you'll probably end up banned if you do ... major kudos to them for letting you live through it

My opinion is that PC2 is exactly what I'd expect it to be reading the comments of the guys working on it and the way settings are exposed and explained.
They are at that stage where they know just enough to think they know everything, they think their software is the pinnacle of technology, and that's their weakness.
That's a stage I've been through during the netKar days, some 10 years ago until, somebody who knew much more than I did slapped my ignorance in my face... so I totally understand the situation they are going through.. hopefully they'll catch up in 10 years.

 

Thanks for the reply Stefano, much appreciated.
Regarding the fact to be banned or not banned I don't really care , I did not offend anyone ( If I did then it is entirely my fault) , I said what I think about the FFB and asked technical questions about the slip effect.
I work in IT and design,develop and implement solutions. If the customer is not happy with what I have done and he or she says that the work is awful , I try to understand the reason behind and I go back to work. I don't ban.