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2019 Cars and Tracks BOP Discussion

Discussion in 'ACC General Discussions' started by redlinemotorsport.co.uk, Oct 26, 2019.

  1. Chriss

    Chriss Racer

    This, 100%.

    BOP comes into play when we are talking about taking each car to its invidivual limits (and then compare what each car can do, performance wise). So, fact-based, we have to understand that BOP in Spa is not "responsible" for laptimes above 2.18 in hotlap mode (maybe except Jag). Period. Below 2.18 in hotlap mode, it can, but does not have to, explain the lap time difference. Luckily BOP is much more than hotlap lap times:
    - fuel consumption
    - tyre wear (to a limited extent)
    - strengths at low or high fuel levels (low or high weight of the car)
    - acceleration vs. top speed
    - etc.

    That's why in our initial BOP comparison, we tried to rule out as many "external" factors as possible. E.g. different drivers perform the test, so we take into account different driving preferences and styles - but each driver compares all cars on one given track, to ensure consistency. Track status, temperatures, setups etc. were fixed. So we believe our BOP table does serve as a valid reference point. But, at the same time, it is not more than a reference point - because of all the factors mentioned above, and because cars that are weak on a hotlap can be strong over a 6 Hour race duration.
     
    Rogue Leader likes this.
  2. PLebre

    PLebre Hardcore Simmer

    Who said this is a videogame?
    Actually this is PC game in the simulation classe like all the other Sim racing titles.
    Off course ACC it is on the hard core side and so far I can remember never a PC racing sim comes so close to the real thing.
    People always what every thing, oh it doesn't have a pace car, but fail to understand that limitations and priorities do exist in RL.
     
  3. Paolo Muià

    Paolo Muià Rookie

    Fixed Setup??? Ok, all is clear now :)
     
  4. Captain Barracuda

    Captain Barracuda Hardcore Simmer

    AMG is my main car and while I agree it's very sharp at Monza for qually pace, it balances out if you race "proper" 60 minute stints there. For example I burn 135 litres in 60 mins at Monza full tilt in the Merc. If I'm in a race that's either 60 mins with no refuelling, no stop is desirable or a longer race where 60 min stints are required I've got to make huge pace compromises to make the distance. Over an unrealistic 20 minute public MP race it's fast as heck, but in real life scenarios in game it evens out.
     
    m_box97 likes this.
  5. Serge M

    Serge M Alien

    When you do note the track condition, time of day and temperature, that way people can replicate your exact conditions which will be more helpful to you. Probably post it in a separate thread
     
  6. trasgu

    trasgu Simracer

    Right on the money. I can go not alien fast but reasonably close to their laptimes in the porsche and audi, and sometimes in some track combos with the lambo and mercedes. But for the love or me I can't go any fast at all with both the lexus and aston martin, even if the aston feels like a car with a setup 100% dialed in, and then I see someone go very fast in those cars in youtube or in a server. Does that means that those cars are only fast in the hands of an alien or does that mean that I suck driving cars with those characteristics?, fast answer: I suck with those cars handling, and I should spend some time trying to understand what makes them click. In some cases it takes me hours and hours of practice to adapt to other cars and learn what makes them work, some aliens can jump from car to car and go fast after a handful of laps. But to a regular to fast person it takes time to adapt to different car handling styles in ACC, this is different from rfactor and older sims that once you learned the sim physics engine tricks you could go quite fast with any mod after half an hour or less of pactice and make a very decent setup in less than 2 hours.

    In ACC the tyres feel different because they are different in size between cars, from car to car the aero platform stability and sentitivity to pitch and roll changes a lot, the way aero is generated at different speeds changes between cars, the changes in setup that makes one car go fast are different between cars, the suspension geometry varies vastly between cars. At the end of the day changing between some cars makes you struggle to cope with the change in a way that previous sims before didn't. Yes, in other sims between different mods and cars the suspensions where different, their weight balance, fuel consumption, the amount of aero, the weights and the engine power delivery and amount of power. But still, you changed between cars and at the end you could feel something generic in the physics being common betweem them all, the basic driving style was the same for any car in the sim. To me all of them felt the same, even in rfactor 2 all of the mods feel like generic variations of the same car with more or less power, grip and balance, ACC changes that and makes you struggle when you jump from one car to another. That deserves some praise.

    But it goes even deeper, in ACC in some cars with the default setup I jump into them and the cars are undrivable for me. After the 1.2 update the ferrari and mclaren at spa suddenly felt very snappy to my liking in entry and mid corner, and the laptimes were full seconds slower than some weeks before, but the audi that is a car that I hate in that track was inmediatly fast, not as fast as before because physics changed regarding engine power with altitude, but the car with the default setup was quite fast. Well, after 2 evenings doing setup work both the mclaren and ferrari where plenty easy to drive and quite fast and consistent both in qualy and race trim. It just means that I need to adapt those cars handling to the way I personally drive, others can go fast with the default setups and struggle with cars I can go fast without changes.

    I find slightly annoing people almost low key demanding "league physics" so all cars are exactly the same, as if in the real life all the cars where equally matched so any car could win any race. The BOP tries to do that, but it is impossible to make all the cars pace equivalent, teams sandbag in testing, who knows if they hide software options in the ECU during testing, or if they set up the cars outside of the performance window to seem slower than they are. And even further: a car that is a rocket in practice can have high fuel comsumption and tyre degradation, so mid race it starts to do funny things in the corners while other "slower" cars start to catch up due to lower fuel weight and tyre degradation, and the longer the race the bigger is the influence of those factors in the cars performance, altering the the balance of performace. Some cars that are quite fast in qualy and in the first 12 laps then suddenly become very difficult to drive fast, those cars are still fast but after some time you no longer have the mental spare capacity to keep driving on the knife edge even if the car speed potential is still quite fast. Part of the fun of the sim is about to deal with all those things, the mentality of jumping from server to server expecting to end in the podium with no setup work at all and changing chars between every server is probably the reason behind some people feeling the BOP is all over the place. It well may be that the BOP has changed between 1.1 to now, but nobody backs it with solid data, the worst of the lies is a half-truth.
     
    Nada, Kopiller and Xavier Eugeni like this.
  7. James P

    James P Simracer

    Following on with this discussion, I have recently recorded a video with Chris Haye summarising car setups in ACC and how each car reacts to different setup changes.

    This Is also then directly linked to driving styles and how you should tailor your setup around it.

    With people discussing setups, driving style changes across different cars and the BOP across the field, it might offer some advice and insight for those struggling to break through a barrier with a car or are struggling to understand a specific car.

     
    Tim Meuris, Ale Robles and warth0g like this.
  8. wait guys, nobody wants to go unrealistic. we think something with porsche is broken. that's it. this is not about nerfing of enpowering, it's about op cars
     
  9. ot:still hotlap is important to join leagues...
     
  10. Maciej Malinowski

    Maciej Malinowski Hardcore Simmer

    I just have no words, how can you judge BoP then if you aren’t close to PERFORMANCE that certain car is capable of, and I just want to make sure that you know that BoP means balance of PERFORMANCE-it’s balancing performance that all cars are capable off,
    I am sorry but from my point of view your opinion of that is just worthless because you are not able yourself to find what those car you are testing are capable of,
    And BoP is about cars absolute performance,
    I mean just look at what you have said, u want Aston to be 2s faster, and I have seen normal people doing 17s in the race where all other top drivers were doing 17s and being competitive, are you expecting Kunos to make this car 2 seconds faster than everything else?
     
  11. Maciej Malinowski

    Maciej Malinowski Hardcore Simmer

    Also I want to point out that IRL, also in game is not balancing those cars is such ways that they are just all the same no matter what, there is ****tone of engineering behind those cars to make them perform the best within that BoP they got, good car design let’s drives use their cars potential as much as possible for as long as possible, and then there are drivers of course that need to know how to cooperate with their machine to extract that performance
     
  12. martcerv

    martcerv Alien

    What tracks are you seeing there is something wrong, however it has been quick at Nürburgring and seems quick now in Hungaroring I suspect I will be matched by the quick guys in the McLaren 720 and Merc in our league. Those cars were silly quick all season and I wasn't able to keep up with them in the Porsche until the latest update, its not really now faster then them but just matches up to them.
     
  13. eRacer212

    eRacer212 Racer

    I can’t double down now, it would be dishonest (I rather commit forum seppuku than being dishonest).

    I run some tests last night and I found no proof whatsoever to support that the Audi or the Porsche are OP. Before you execute me for treason, let me explain:

    Test 1 was simple, repetition of the last quick race that I did on Sunday, when the Audi became a ballistic missile that passed the AI like nothing.

    Result: It didn’t happen at all. It was all well balanced. I raced the AI and they were aggressive and fast enough and the Audi didn’t fly like a space ship. I did at least 10 attempts, just ten first laps… nothing special happened, just normal wheel to wheel racing (very fun indeed).

    (on Sunday I passed that exactly same AI configuration like a rocket, hence my opinion that the Audi was OP)

    I raced the same conditions with the Jag, Audi, and Porsche. They performed very equal.
    I almost had a stroke, because I have been very loud about this! So I decided to run more tests (I have the replays but I was too tired to render the vids, it took me 2 hours to do all this)

    Test 2 (as someone suggested in another thread)

    Straight speed test at Paul Ricard.

    Aggressive setup

    Starting point always the same, at pit limiter and release always at the same exact point. Run over the 100 meters post at the end of the straight.

    Jaguar 174 mph

    Audi 173 mph

    Porsche 172 mph

    (I know BoP is not just straight speed, but is part of it)

    Test 3

    Chasing speed – slip stream speed in straight line

    Aggressive setup

    Quick race against 1 single AI opponent. Chase him at full speed and use slipstream to overtake and run over 100 meters mark at the end of the straight.

    Jaguar 180

    Audi 178

    Porsche 178

    I would need corner speeding tests to make it more complete. I only have these 3 tests at the moment, but are enough for me. I wanted to prove that the Audi/Porsche Evo are OP and I couldn’t.

    I think I proved myself wrong. I can’t lie about that (I mean, I could but what is the point?). Whatever I saw on Sunday, is not there or doesn’t exist. I stand corrected. Awaiting execution.


    ps: I also did 2:19 in Spa, by the way. That took me another hour.
     
    Eduardo AuKiss and Kopiller like this.
  14. hungaroring, Barcellona i have to check if it is the combination with pad assists that is op, I suppose zolder, surely on nurburgring, zandvort. all tracks in which 991.2 did not race, plus Barcelona. In zolder I suppose it is, because of it's op traction, but it's just a though. maybe you can confirm the opposite.
     
  15. Maciej Malinowski

    Maciej Malinowski Hardcore Simmer

    Good to hear that you have changed your mind about those cars, I hope you understand tho that there are hundreds other factors that make car fast, both in BoP and it’s design, that’s why we currently have a problem with 911.2 that before yes it was fast but comparable with other car over the stint, but now after 1.2 it’s bloody quick even over full stint with full fuel load and going through one tyre set, or at least it driver can handle changing balance of the 911, and of course we are talking about that situation, that also makes that Porsche extremely fast during those shorter MP races that are so common on public servers
     
    eRacer212 likes this.
  16. m_box97

    m_box97 Simracer

    As @Captain Barracuda pointed out I think some people want a Bop made for 20min multiplayer race where practically you have the same car with a different exterior and sound package, if people complain that merc is too fast at monza but at the same time you can't get a 1h stint out of the tank than everything is right. This cars are balanced for endurance races on a group of tracks and sometimes irl the balance at a specific track sucks because someone sandbagged before in order to have an advantage at a specific race (spa f.e.).
    As far as I know Bop in ACC (720s is an exception) is done from the official Bop (intake, weight, electronic ecc...) so it would be the wrong direction in my opinion to say "give the Porsche less power", kunos could double check the data but if the data are correct then is fine for me.
     
  17. Maciej Malinowski

    Maciej Malinowski Hardcore Simmer

    Absolutly right, I dont think Porsche has to much power everythink is right with its power and BoP in case of weight, but now I thought about engine maps, shouldnt we use race engine maps for porsche, and use less fuel balancing the car more over the stint, it can be that on engine map 8 its that tiny bit better just like Merc on Monza in 20 minute races when u dont need to care about fuel and engine? How does 911 compare to otheres when using race rather than quali maps?
     
  18. martcerv

    martcerv Alien

    Currently I use map 7 as I like a bit more aggressive throttle and my throttle travel is fairly long anyway. I havent needed to run Race maps in any races that I race with our max stint time at 65 minutes even for Enduros and it can just get this at even the faster tracks with just a little lift and coast to eak out an extra lap if it a gripped up track. Many of our longer races had some rain though and fuel isnt an issue then.

    Pace wise I find maps 1-3 about .3 to .5 per lap slower but saves considerable fuel, I still dont think the fuel burn gain is worth running a bit lighter, I keep an eye on fuel use during the stint and try to make sure I am on track at 15/30/45 minutes. Last I tested map 4 and map 8 were identical power/fuel burn and lap times but I haven't tried that in the latest patch if that's been fixed yet. If your always running very fast tracks in races then fuel is probably more of an issue but I remember the Merc when I ran that I needed to use lower map in that but the actual laptime loss was even less then on the 911's with race maps.

    Running some fun runs tonight with a few league guys at Hungaroring I was about .3 per lap faster then our top Alien who runs the 720's so there is likely a bit there in the 911 vs that but clearly not heaps.
     
    Maciej Malinowski likes this.
  19. Roy_33

    Roy_33 Gamer

    I remember seeing in another thread by one of the developers that map 1 to 4 are for dry weather with different fuel usage and maps 5 to 8 for wet weather/track so it depends on the situation i guess
     
  20. martcerv

    martcerv Alien

    Every car is different Porsche maps are.

    Porsche 991 GT3-R & Porsche 991ii GT3-R (EVO)
    1-9 maps.

    • 1 normal power&consumption least progressive throttle map
    • 2 normal power&consumption progressive throttle map
    • 3 normal power&consumption aggressive throttle map
    • 4 normal power&consumption linear throttle map
    • 5 Qual power, high consumption, least progressive throttle map
    • 6 Qual power, high consumption, progressive throttle map
    • 7 Qual power, high consumption, aggressive throttle map
    • 8 Qual power, high consumption, linear throttle map
    • 9 Low power, low consumption, progressive throttle map
    10 Pace Car very slow map and low consumption for Pace Car situations
     
    Eduardo AuKiss likes this.
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