1. Do you need support for Assetto Corsa Competizione? Please use the proper forum below and ALWAYS zip and attach the WHOLE "Logs" folder in your c:\users\*youruser*\AppData\Local\AC2\Saved. The "AppData" folder is hidden by default, check "Hidden items" in your Windows view properties. If you report a crash, ALWAYS zip and attach the WHOLE "Crashes" folder in the same directory.
  2. FOR ASSETTO CORSA COMPETIZIONE: If you report issues with saved games, please always zip and attach your entire User/Documents/Assetto Corsa Competizione/Savegame folder!
  3. If your game executable is missing, please add your entire Steam directory to the exceptions in your antivirus software, then run a Steam integrity check or reinstall the game altogether.

READ HERE About 1.0 multiplayer structure

Discussion in 'ACC General Discussions' started by Minolin, May 8, 2019.

  1. sirgaric

    sirgaric Hardcore Simmer

    I second this. I just had a race in one of the Kunos official servers, and the racing was really good, really close racing in the first laps with no contacts whatsoever. At the end of the race I wanted to do another race but I could't because my HMD was soaked with sweat :D

    We all want the best possible experience, and I know for sure the people from Kunos will try to provide the best experience they possibly can, but this endless negativity doesn't help anyone.
     
  2. mister dog

    mister dog Alien

    Good point GM makes is that ACC is probably geared up to be a multi platform title, which will make things even more complicated in terms of providing a decent matchmaking across all those platforms.
     
  3. mkotechno

    mkotechno Simracer

    Why I would populate a multiplayer that I don't like, that would only send the wrong message to Kunos as is I like it and needs no change.

    I like ACC a lot, but I will avoid the server browser as the plage.

    If by the time career mode gets old, multiplayer is still in the 90's, then I will move on.

    I play more games than racing titles, there are hundreds of great games out there to stick with something that is not that great.
     
  4. sirgaric

    sirgaric Hardcore Simmer

    I don't think his message was directed to you, he specifically mentioned users who fully enjoy ACC :)
     
  5. Si.

    Si. Simracer

    The original post was “From minute 3:00 How can you defend this?”, I agreed you can’t defend it, it’s an awful video ;).

    But to be fair it was awful from 00:01. I know 47 people will probably disagree with me but I’m ok with that :).
     
  6. mkotechno

    mkotechno Simracer

    Being very critical and enjoying the game are not mutually exclusive.
     
    manuel_rendo and coiso like this.
  7. Coanda

    Coanda Alien

  8. Oblit0r

    Oblit0r Alien

    You mean the video is awful as in you simply don't like the video, or as in you don't like the things he's saying? I'm assuming you meant the latter, but I'm asking it just so it's clear we're talking about the same thing.
    If indeed it is the latter, my question is why? This is not a rhetorical question, I genuinely am interested.
     
    kiril_r likes this.
  9. I don't mind GamerMuscle, he can be entertaining and he is not afraid to say what he thinks. All those popular sim/racing youtube channels can only help sim racing. I was watching Jimmy Broadbent the other day racing live and nine thousand people were all tuned in at the same time, who would have thought a few years back.
     
  10. slopps

    slopps Simracer

    can't believe people trying to defend the game are nitpicking over what was meant by matchmaking lol.
    Its pretty obvious what matchmaking is. It means the game or server MATCHES you with people of similar skill. And if you consistently win all the time, you will get reMATCHED with people of higher skill.
    Its quite simple. Ever heard of CS GO? Or , i dont know, iracing?
    I don't think it was unreasonable to have expected, as i did, that this is what we were going to get with ACC. Surely this was going to be the biggest differentiating factor to AC. Otherwise i would not have bothered buying it on initial release.
    Just seems like its all been a bit of a long con now.
     
  11. PhilS13

    PhilS13 Alien

    You are going to get that in ACC.
     
    LeDude83 likes this.
  12. Si.

    Si. Simracer

    How are these two methods a million miles apart?
     
    Freddie Seng, LeDude83 and pons like this.
  13. Minolin

    Minolin Staff Member KS Dev Team

    I shouldn't do that I shouldn't do that
    Because the whole discussion is founded on the statement "do not expect the whole MP system to suddenly change over night (transforming ACC into an iRacing clone)" - to quote your own words, playing down the dimension to 4-5 servers is straw man argument.

    But let's follow the idea of "why not just copy the thing we already know". One button, select a car, hide all servers behind that system and let groups join the servers in hourly sequences. The math isn't rocket science, our current data model has all it needs and the algorithms already do that job; we'd just remove a bunch that is handling the complication of ongoing sessions, and move to the creating session instead. To be really nitpicking, we'd have to remove a lot of code to really copy the system, or should we leave the track preferences in so servers can spawn different tracks inside the same week? Same for the level of sophistication, atm we do more than just building brakets of performance ratings.

    That'll work fine for a moment, at least for the community members that want this way of racing, opposed to the guys who don't want to wait when they have 25 minutes time to do something (or want to schedule their spare time hobby and meet appointments). Or the guys around community servers like @MrGit@Twitch (btw if you seek competition, honestly have a look there - not the open Monza server, but the others). But I see you do not consider those as significant, let's ignore them for a moment. What happens next is that all the server admins will ask theirselves why they host servers that are completely anonymous. You cannot join them, nobody reads/recognizes who they are, it's just a server in a system. Two branches: One is that we could move them into a pickup world again, which removes them from the other system. Or we ignore the fact, and admins will cancle their contributions, in both ways we end up with 4 or 5 Kunos servers for the "one button system". Means a bit more than 100 drivers can enjoy - that won't be enough capacity, will it? Especially considering the argumentation that the lack of the button will kill ACC; and if we do it we will have naturally win so many drivers.

    So the next step is to just insert more official servers. Of course we have huge sales, so we can afford more servers. Let's follow this assumption, how many servers should we set up? Enough for 500 drivers online in this MP at the same time?
    It's around 5x the capacity of SRS, but we aren't a 2-man team without funding. However we are talking about "official" features, not some modding. @Lino Carreira just dropped a note about the matter on racedepartment, as you won't necessarily believe me. The point is we cannot simply offer infrastructure in a modder's way (including myself with MR). There you seek the cheapest solution without any kind of redudancy, support or any hint if you can still offer the same in 2 years. Looking at the current outbreak, imagine what would happen if we have to show up at the end of the year and tell you "sorry, the cheap stuff we found closed down/locked us out and our price model doesn't allow to go on" (and I would totally understand it). It wouldn't be an ambigous "promise" that can be understood either way - it would be something that evidently was there and used. So the price you have to calculate is not the cheapest solution you can find, but the reliable one. We may agree on that a state-of-the-art fallback would be something like AWS/Azure (at least that was already suggested).

    So back to our 500 users, that would be 14 acc servers (given a 36 limit). Tbh. I'm not sure which and how many virtual machines we'd need to run X acc servers without problems, but I assume 4x A3 or 2x A4 may work. Well tbh. I hope so, as my only experience is an A1 which can hardly maintain the OS, and e.g. installing any windows update will kill even RDP - but I hope that's not the characteristics of A but the low number of RAM and cores). That would be either 4x 260€ or 2x 525 € / month, so roughly 1.000 €. Have your own look here: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/pricing/calculator/?service=virtual-machines (scroll down to the calculator)

    Ok, now you could say "well you're Kunos, just do it, it will be worth it 10x by more sales". The tricky thing with Azure (and comparable cloud services) is that you notice there's another fee, in the worst case after the first invoice:
    https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/pricing/details/bandwidth/

    Inbound traffic is free, but outbound traffic (= server upload to the clients) is taxed in a few price steps, where the first 5 GB are free. Gladly they also offer a calculator for that, so let's see what bandwidth estimates we should apply:
    Outgoing traffic in an ACC server is roughly (x - 1) * x * f, for x = 36 this is roughly 16,5 MBit/s. Times 14 servers is 231 MBit/s. Conversion MBit/s to GB(yte)/month is multiply 328.5 => makes it 75883,5 GB/month, roughly 75 TB.
    Insert this into the bandwidth calculator gives a surprising result: 6082€ / month. Only the bandwidth, only 500 users.
    Ofc. reality is more complicated, you have huge load shifts during the day, different continents; user numbers are unknown - but that's the dimension you need to feel save and comfortable with if you even start to think about that direction. Also, how many years did you expect us to deliver that service for a non-subscription offer? 3? 5? And who can tell me how the conditions are in 5 years?

    I'm not saying that you *have* to pay (and cover) such insane prices, but you need to build a long term business in a way that falling back to this wouldn't necessarily kill the whole feature/game/company. And that's why modders can do things for free; but we can not.

    Coming back to the first branch: "do not expect the whole MP system to suddenly change over night (transforming ACC into an iRacing clone)". If that is not necessary, and 5 servers for competitive action is enough, why are we on page 34?
    And to be honest (but that's only my subjective estimate), it probably wouldn't work as good as advertised, and the reasons you give me would be that a) we didn't fully copy every aspect and b) all the drivers in the public racing should be forced to move to the "one button" system
     
  14. chksix

    chksix Simracer

    /thread. Time to lock it.
     
    vortex19, LeDude83, jaxx_za and 4 others like this.
  15. mkotechno

    mkotechno Simracer

    Thanks for being so open, really appreciated.

    I still would personally go for it, even knowing that in 2020 Kunos would need to ask for a subscription fee. I was actually expecting that.

    Anyways thanks again.

    Also, much better this approach of being open and saying "look guys, we cannot do this because money is too much" rather than trying to bend what matchmaking means.

    A healthy community needs more Minolins.

    Finally, random idea here: scheduled races P2P servers for normal users, official servers for users with sub. But server browser for everyone as is now.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
  16. Poguinhas

    Poguinhas Alien

    I really appreciate the honesty, to me it really helps to see the numbers that show why a solution is or isn't possible, and I'm glad you did that.
    Like I already said, the decision to use the word "Matchmaking" was a bit unfortunate, since by that the devs meant one thing, and the users read another, which in the end created the ****storm we're seeing.
    First of all, we need to wait and see how many active player we're gonna get after full release. With the amount we currently have, even if you introduced the best system in the world it wouldn't be ideal, and how many we'll get at the end of the month is beyond my knowlege (you guys probably have a good idea of it, but I certainly don't).
    I'm also hopeful that with the data you collect you are able to introduce some further improvements to the current system. One I'd like to see is to provide the option to server admins to start each session at fixed intervals, rather than just looping one session after the other, but I'm sure you already have quite a few ideas, and will probably get even more as time goes by.

    Anyway, wish you all the best of luck with this.
     
  17. bgil66

    bgil66 Alien

    Get ready for another 694 replies
     
  18. @Minolin
    1 question: i have heard Steam offers their own servers for game developers. Those servers can't be used for hosting ACC mp? Or they are not cheap enough too?
     
  19. Echo_29

    Echo_29 Hardcore Simmer

    Good response, but if ACC had a structured multiplayer with special events, you'd get a lot more people joining, maybe even iRacing guys coming over for the GT3 endurance events as GT3 is iRacing is meh.
     
    Abwursten likes this.
  20. henkjansmits

    henkjansmits Simracer

    If this thread is closed that would free up enough upload capacity on the Kunos webserver to host all these ACC matchmaking servers.
     
    Racert46, chksix and Echo_29 like this.
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