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AI - historic and modern day

Discussion in 'Chit Chat Room' started by jajp999, May 2, 2016.

  1. jajp999

    jajp999 Gamer

    I think the AI in AC since the 1.5 update is probably the best in a modern sim.

    Being an old git I have been playing sims for more years than I care to remember (or probably can remember).... But I seem to recall GP3's AI as being fantastic and a recollection of having great battles against the AI in GPL.

    My question is...... Is this just looking back at the good old times with rose tinted glasses and that historic AI was rubbish by today's standards or are we still struggling with today's sims as far as AI is concerned (although I'm very happy with AC AI in v1.5)

    Intrigued in others memories of the good old days
     
    pigsy and Horus like this.

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  3. Personally, I don't like the way that the cars stick to two lines on the extreme outer edges of the track through the first few corners. It's way too easy to gain huge numbers of places by steaming down the middle. In addition, I noticed something today after three short 5 lap races @ Vallelunga Club in the three versions of the Fiat Abarth 595SS (98% default setting). The two standard versions seemed to be OK as far as performance is concerned, but the AI versions of the S2 were pathetic. I started in last place with 24 cars on the grid, took the lead less than halfway through lap 2, and won the race by 31.5 seconds! I don't know if it was a glitch or not, but there was clearly something seriously wrong with the performance of the AI cars in that race....
     
    Andy-R likes this.
  4. kakusso

    kakusso Hardcore Simmer

    The AI in GP3 was very good, It was fun to watch them slip-streaming my car to pass. Also the AI cars had variable levels of performance across the race some were slightly faster for some laps, then slightly slower. That's the reason I enjoyed watching AI races, lot's of overtaking between them.
    In AC the AI also slip-streams but sometimes it lifts off for a microsecond when pulling alongside, also they don't seem to do it so intentionally as in GP3.
    Amazing what they did in a game that could be placed in a couple of 1.44MB Floppy disks.
    It even had telemetry.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2016
    pigsy likes this.
  5. Patrik Marek

    Patrik Marek Alien

    maybe it's a track thing, but they don't perform all that well on Brands Hatch if there is a slow car up front.
    still needs some tweaking I suppose

    I personally don't race AI in AC all that much, becasue to the way I'm driving, they don't react all that well, which is a shame,
    I would wished they
    - would have more awareness of people around, not only on their line
    - they would be able to go outside of their line / even track in order to prevent collision (like real drivers would do)
    - they would do better job at overtaking slower cars ( as highlighted by the video)
    - "protect" the overtakes where they drive in 2 lines and if player is faster car with better grip, he can easily drive in the middle

    after all, it doesn't' matter if it's fault of player and not AI, if the collision could have been avoided

     
  6. Fat Rich

    Fat Rich Hardcore Simmer

    My memories of GP2/ GP3 /GP4 was that the AI worked so well you didn't even notice them. Their only weak point was at race starts where they'd all line up and wait for space allowing human players to pick their way through and join the head of the queue.

    I still race GPL regularly and the AI is mostly excellent and pretty scary, generally after a race I need a stiff drink and a lie down :) .... something no other sim seems to be able to do. It really helps that the different drivers are so distinctive and and recognisable, it really gives a feeling of racing different personalities. For example I had a race where I held Graham Hill up and he only tried to overtake in sensible places, eventually I made a mistake and he got past. I tried the same blocking on John Surtees who was next in line and he just barged past at the first opportunity :D. The AI are generally pretty aggressive at the starts making it difficult to gain places, and in championship mode the title contenders will drive differently towards the end of a season than they did at the start of the season, which is really cool. Having said all that, when the AI does something stupid it's usually breathtakingly dumb..... generally going into and out of the pits is problematic as it switches from it's pitting path to it's racing path, also if a car gets a mechanical failure it can cause massive pile ups. Plus the cars don't always move realistically and sometimes slide sideways in an ugly crablike movement.

    rF2 and GSCE / AMS have solid AI but somehow lack excitement, it feels like I'm racing AI even though it doesn't actually do much wrong. Project Cars the AI seem to have no awareness and will crash into me even when I'm fully alongside and making a clean pass, plus it'll overtake on the grass, cutting corners and all sorts of other nonsense.

    AC now has a really solid AI and a great foundation to build on, 1.5 is a big improvement. It still tends to go to the extreme edges of the track when running alongside another car which costs it a lot of time, and it's too easy to intimidate them by divebombing them, they'll always move and give up the corner whereas in GPL they'll just take their line and crash you out unless you're fully alongside.

    If Stefano can fix these things, plus get the AI using the cut back when a player outbrakes themselves, using the slipstream, handling lapped traffic and slower cars from different classes.... AC will have one of the best AIs ever. It'll probably take years of development and some trial and error as it's probably the most difficult thing to achieve in racing games. I still think AC needs a hardcore mode where the AI won't stand any nonsense, and an easier mode that won't put off the casual players... but that means infinitely more variables for Kunos to test and fix :eek:
     
  7. Andy-R

    Andy-R Alien

    yep ive noticed similar. certain cars are really far off pace. the 595ss s2 and nissan gtr are the worst ive seen so far. I dont like how the ai refuse to overtake each other now. they seem more keen to overtake the player than other ai. mod track I know but longford is a good example. if an ai goes to exit the pit and another is coming passed they both completely stop and exit to pits, when I had the same situation but with me instead of an ai the ai car did come passed (after slowing down alot.)
     
  8. ouvert

    ouvert Alien

    oh, they added formation lap ? :):rolleyes:
     
    Patrik Marek likes this.
  9. Quffy

    Quffy Alien

    It will depend on some things. Creating real life like AI is a hard job, and for different type of cars/tracks; I'm assuming this because several older and modern sims are still troubling this. And then whatever work was done 15 years ago, it didn't carry over to a new developer team; they had to start from scratch. If the GP3 devs continued making sims, then their work would maybe get better, but they stopped making sims, so their work froze in time.
    AC's AI basically started in 2013/14. Imagining that AC was released 10-15 years ago, now in 2016 the quality of AI could be better. I'm not saying we need to wait 10-15 years from now to have good AI in AC, it all depends on the amount of time Kunos can dedicate to AI.

    What Kunos posted in the other thread some time ago is a good indication of the perceived problems in AI operation. And this tells me the improvements didn't stagnate.
     
    Mogster likes this.
  10. Mogster

    Mogster Alien

    I set up road car track day scenarios, they work pretty well now considering the wide performance gaps. I agree about the big gap between the cars at the start, that's also been present in other sims though.

    Allowing total multi class AI on the same track makes things much harder AI wise, so many combos to test. The console version is going to limit AI choice to defined classes irc, that's probably a good idea. Do many people want to race modern race cars against 60s road cars??? Really???
     
  11. Fat Rich

    Fat Rich Hardcore Simmer

    Exactly this, GP2 /3 /4 had one physics model and approx 16 tracks to test the AI on. GPL had 5 physics models and 11 tracks to test them on, plus it was built on the highly developed Papyrus AI used in other games for a few years. Neither were officially moddable so the developers only had to focus on their own content, no thought was given to modders.

    AC has 100+ cars and 15+ tracks, plus it's moddable so the AI has to work on tracks Kunos have no control over, plus has to be easy (ish) for modders to get the AI behaving right. A much bigger challenge.
     
    eXo and Mogster like this.
  12. ouvert

    ouvert Alien

    yep you are right .. AC being under constant developement makes it more complicated .. if we isolate ourself from devs and overlook fact that we are fans following AC developement for few years obvious than answer is: hire more testers ... not that simple I guess .. or is it ... it was much simplier in EA phase where we partialy supplement the testers
     
  13. Fat Rich

    Fat Rich Hardcore Simmer

    Forgot to mention, in AC the AI uses the same physics as us, every time they adjust the physics the AI have to be retested and fixed :eek:

    Older sims didn't use the real physics, they just followed a racing line at a predetermined speed and had some lines to define track limits, overtakes and pit entry. Change the physics and the AI are unaffected although they may start to look unrealistic :D
     
    Mogster likes this.
  14. ouvert

    ouvert Alien

    in most other sims they use simplified physics, with altered grip, etc to ballance AIs performance, so by changes to physics AI is less influenced .. it is just different apporaches ... Stephano somewhere explained why he prefers ACs way .. hard to say which one is better .. if the result is good I don`t think I care ...
     
  15. Stereo

    Stereo Alien

    It's allowed but not supported, the AI will assume other drivers have the same car as they do. So for example there's no code for "being passed as a lower-class car", or inversely "passing a lower-class car", the AI will wait for an opportunity where two equally matched cars can go side by side.

    Letting you combine any car is more so you can add more cars of the same class (eg. the modded GT3 camaro + bentley can run with stock content GT3s), on the console they don't need to support 3rd party mods.
     
  16. Gevatter

    Gevatter Alien

    Is the AI dependent on the mod? I mean, are there parameters in a mod car that influence or even determine AI behavior of the mod? Following that, could it be possible to get worse AI performance out of an mod AI car compared to stock content?
     
  17. aphidgod

    aphidgod Alien

    Yes, there are AI settings unique to each car. (ai.ini) And you do have to tune it a bit, suboptimal settings will net you poor and/or unrealistic driving.
     

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