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PS4 AI times and behaviour

Discussion in 'Console Lounge' started by LEW15, Jun 28, 2017.

  1. LEW15

    LEW15 Rookie

    Hi,
    I've got a couple of questions about the AI in AC. I've been racing in AC since its pre-alpha on PC, now switched to PS4 for "logistic" reasons and I was glad to see that there was very little difference. I absolutely love the feel of this sim and gives me all satisfaction I seek from such title.
    However, I would like to clarify a few things about AI which I find extremely frustrating at times. I am an offline racer, racing career or custom championships at Very hard or Alien.
    I completely understand that there cannot be perfect AI and the script is very complicated and hard. No issues there. I guess I seek more of common sense than perfect AI.
    My issues:
    1. How come a car, in any category record faster lap times in race with full tank, harder tyres, etc.. than in qualification? And not only that, it happens 3 or 4 laps into the race with 20 lap race for example. Why are the difficulties and AI times set this way? Makes racing extremely frustrating and impossible for player.
    2. When qualifying for a race, I set comparable times to leader. So can finish in top 3 no problem. When I don't want to wait till the end of session time and end it quicker, the top few racers jump ahead with times let's say 1 faster. If I keep my car in garage, the times I set will be very comparable to leaders as mentioned. Again, why is the scrip set this way? And how can there be so much variability in one difficulty level? Moreover, these times seem to be used as threshold for race. So when skipping session and AI recording crazy times, they will maintain that pace in race. When I keep waiting until the end and thus AI end up with lower times, they will be maintained in race, making it more equal for player.
    3. AI seems to record incredibly fast laps, regarding of the race stage - beginning with full tank and harder tyres, end of the race with temperature or degradation issues, etc.. This doesn't reflect any racing category out there. Are they actually using harder compounds for race, softer for qualification? How can they record faster lap times during race than Q?
    4. AI behaviour changes dramatically depending on how far player is from it. This changed a little in the last patch, but still, there is incredible variability in times depending on your position. An example would be...if I have a bad start and get stuck in 4th or 5th, the leader zooms away under incredible pace, passing qualy times. On the other hand, when I manage a good start and keep up with top 2 or 3 cars the opening lap and beyond, we are able to race at lower times. Making it little bit more possible to win the race. Equally, if I stay behind for a race, the cars will post crazy lap times in front. When I manage over take the leader after start, I can easily pull away and the lap times managed by the pack can be even 2 seconds slower than former.
    Why are the algorithms set so much against logic or common sense?
    5. Is somewhat related to above. When trailing leader by a second or two, they post incredible lap times and have ideal, clean racing line every lap and turn. When you manage to get closer, they start to show very erratic behaviour, not just defending line, but mid corner random braking, swaying car into your direction for no reason and others. It becomes very erratic, unpredictable. Making any kid f clean fight impossible. If you break more before the corner, give them way, so they do as well..some random mid corner breaking or silly manoeuvre totally out of racing line.

    That's it. Just a summary of my frustration and observation. Like I said, I am not after perfect AI. I know that will not happen but would it be possible to implement little bit more common sense?
    Thank you for reading
    Tom
     
    Totall Wrytoff and Alex1996 like this.

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  3. danowat

    danowat Hardcore Simmer

    The AI, as it currently stands on the consoles, is a mess, plain and simple.

    Try slowing down, and the cars behind you won't even attempt to overtake, they'll just sit there in form a queue behind you, and then some of them will dissapear.

    Also, they have the issue that Forza suffers from, that being there is always a "fast" driver in the AI pack, and he, and sometimes the second fastest driver, will be miles quicker than the rest of the AI, this leads to a very strung out race.

    I am sure it wasn't as bad as it currently is prior to 1.14.

    Let's hope the AI improvements that came to the PC version come to the consoles ASAP.
     
  4. BobTheDog

    BobTheDog Hardcore Simmer

    I think the AI was better when they first released on console, somewhere along the line they managed to mess it up I think because users were saying the AI was too hostile so they changed it, this was the same time they made changes to the AI levels.
     
  5. danowat

    danowat Hardcore Simmer

    I agree!.
     
  6. Gtivrsixer

    Gtivrsixer Racer

    Totally agree, really bad in the "career" mode. Racing on hard I'm usually about as fast as the ai, but that leader is posting a second a lap faster times than me or any of the other ai. Hopefully, like someone else said, the new model on pc comes quick
     
  7. SlimCharles

    SlimCharles Alien

    For me it's far from being a mess. The main problem is that they fear to overtake. The first 1 or 2 laps are a lot of fun. But when the race gets stable, it's a train convoy.

    Hopefully the next update comes in July.

    And I hope it's not true that they lowered down the agression of the AI because complains.
     
  8. danowat

    danowat Hardcore Simmer

    When they prefer to queue up in a line behind you when you slow down (and a number of them disappear), rather than overtake and continue racing, it is indeed a mess.
     
    Donnced2 likes this.
  9. Donnced2

    Donnced2 Hardcore Simmer

    Yup, agreed! The updates of the AI are a mess till now in console.

    At realese they were bloody fast but they were also more aggressive and quite more aware of your position on the track.

    Nowadays they are inconsistent.. Sometimes even without changing lane they aren't aware of your position and hit you mad as an online public lobby angry kid ruining your race or start...

    And blocking the AI.. That doesn't even do a reverse an avoid you to the left or right and ends teleported to box is delirious..

    Realy hope to see an real change in the AI update that will supposedly come in the next update..
    Because otherwise only personalised private lobbies and hotlapping is worth in this ""racing sim""

    I don't expect the 1.15 update before September at least seeing the problem's with the 1.14 Xbox One update, summer months and previous update launches
     
  10. SlimCharles

    SlimCharles Alien

    No it's not. When racing normally they dont do that. They are afraid of overtaking, but, like I said the first 1 2 laps are fun.

    I made a championship GT4 and it was enjoyble enough. In some tracks they are quite slow and I win easily on Alien. But, in other tracks, they are super fast and you have to try to overtake the max number of cars in the first lap because it will determinate your final position.

    And I don't know what people refers to when they say the AI rams you. It never happened to me. They are much more clean than what it is necessary, and they always reconize you.
     
  11. I play on PC, and haven't studied the AI in such depth.
    The recent update though improved the AI by leaps and bounds.

    Your comments seems interesting though, perhaps further tweaking can be done for an even better single player experience.
    Kunos seem to constantly and unrelentingly be polishing Assetto Corsa, so chances are the AI could be ironed out further.
     
  12. MaxStrong01

    MaxStrong01 Racer

    My experience is quiet similar to yours. When you create an equilibrated championship as GT4 or BMW 1 series racing or 500 AC...the AI works in acceptable way. For sure there is room for improvement but on PC they already did it. It is only question of time to release it on console too. Regarding the different performance on different tracks I have a comment: frequently I read that they are superfast in some tracks and slower on other. Do you never thought that it could be seen by opposite side? I mean that you are much faster on some track and less on some other then the AI seems to be more or less competitive according to your performance. In real world all the drivers have preferred tracks and other that are less comfortable to them so why it shoulb be different for sim drivers?
    Just to close I the AI behaviour for me is also too clean. Some more aggressivity could be more realistic. If they may bump you sometimes depends also by our behaviour. If we try to overtake a.car too in a turn too aggressive or late where should not possible overtake any driver, human or AI, will bump us in sym and real world. Sometimes we have to keep in mind that a good simulation have to simulate properly also these cases.
     
  13. SlimCharles

    SlimCharles Alien

    The IA it's a mess


    Bad points:
    • Today they ram me two times from behind for the first time after playing with it quite a lot. The situations were a bit special though: 312t braking and the guy behind blocks the brakes and the second in the first corner of Mugello. We are getting out the corner and the guy behind doesn't reconize me (first time I see it) and hits me in the right rear corner of my car.
    • They don't overtake if you stop.
    • They fear to overtake: related with the last thing.
    But it's not a mess. Not by far.

    That's an intersting point of view, but almost for sure is not the case. If the differences were small, could be true but they seem to be several seconds slower from track to track compared to myself. That happens because the nature of the corners of every track. Let's take for example the Cayman GT4 CS: in Red Bull ring they are very slow. As the track is mostly straights, the way you take the corners it's crucial. An the AI looses a lot of time by breaking in the middle of the corner, not doing it smothly or bad down shifting. The in Nurbugring they are much more faster.

    The proof of the huge difference of the AI between tracks is that we (humans) have the same experience with it. I bet that if you try the Cayman on Nurburgring and RB Ring, you will have the same experience.
     
    MaxStrong01 likes this.
  14. MaxStrong01

    MaxStrong01 Racer

    Mainly yo
    Mainly you are right and my post was also a little an extremization to push the discussion. For sure there is some tracks that can be more comfortable or less depending by our driving style but this cannot carry to many seconds of gap per lap. This is due to a poor AI quality.
    I am running a custom champioship with 90's DTM cars (very funny) at "very hard" level and I can confirm to got the same feeling on RB Ring: I was much faster than AI meanwhile on Nordschleife there is much more competition.

    Is there anyone that know if the AI improvemnt released on PC improved this really? Please share your experience.
     
    IllestD and SlimCharles like this.
  15. SlimCharles

    SlimCharles Alien

    I know and it was very usefull, as it gives more clarity about the issue.

    I would not say at all it is a poor AI as it can deliver (like I showed in the video) excellent racing, but I do would say first it is badly ballanced between tracks and second they have the stoping issue. Most of the time and under the optimum circustances it is very enjoyble.

    The second problem has been solved completely like we can see in the videos of the new update. The first issue should be interesting to know if it has been solved. About that, Stefano said he fixed a bit the issues when shifting. That is one of the things that makes the AI driving so erratic. I would also like to know the experience of the PC guys.

    I drop this thread with videos of the new AI. http://www.assettocorsa.net/forum/i...the-new-ai-mostly-from-its-perspective.45720/
     
  16. LEW15

    LEW15 Rookie

    It seems like we got a nice discussion going. I hope Kunos notices. I am not going to quote specific posts (too many) but try to respond in bulk instead. You can't call it enjoyable, if on Alien you overtake 4-5 cars with an average reaction time right after start. You literally have to fake starts to have fun after start. If you manage to jump to first on first lap, their lap times are about 2 seconds slower than those if you had raced them mid race. And you win with ease. Hardly enjoyable. I had races where I managed to spun 2-3 laps to go on alien, and still won with ease, they were that far back. I also had race where in this "train" I went off, coming out of corner (Beckettes onto hangar), touched the grass and started spinning halfway between grass and track, they all lined up behind me, after doing 360 and managed to end up on side of the track, I accelerated and managed to be still in 1st. Yet the track is as wide as air strip there.
    I also agree, that there is inconsistency between tracks. I have exactly the same issue, when playing on alien, I win half races with extraordinary ease, some need to fight hard for 2-3rd. My experience also is that they ram you when close (either back or side) like they didn't see you or almost on purpose because from reply you can clearly see they change racing line by heaps, and unnecessarily. This especially happens when you try to outbreak them, they sway under braking like mad sometimes or change direction mid corner when you are ahead, yet there is plenty space left. So the aggression is put into wrong place I'd say.
    Did you also notice that you are racing drivers in career whose names are not even in standings table? That after first race Hugh Lemont is 2nd, but next race is last with no points and drivers are randomly awarded points? You maintain second only because your championship rival is behind you in race, only to find our in standings that he was awarded full points? What is up with that? That is clearly a mess. :)
    Thanks for replies, keep it going
     
  17. SlimCharles

    SlimCharles Alien

    That the AI has several issues, doesn't mean it is not enjoyble. It is clearly enjoyble because you can have fun with it most of the time.

    That happened to me on championship mode, so I confirm it's a bug :(. I did 3 races of one championship. In the first 2 I didn't get points. In the third one I won, but at the end of this race I was first in the championship with 50 points :confused:

    It is a mess, but it has nothing to do with the AI.
     
  18. LEW15

    LEW15 Rookie

    Fair enough, "not enjoyable" is not the right expression. Of course I can enjoy it, otherwise I wouldn't race. But it is very frustrating at times too. Which makes it in turn, less enjoyable.
    I really hope this gets looked into. I thought the latest patch was correcting things, but after reading all the posts and thinking about it, it was in fact better before. Shame I don't have the PC anymore to compare.

    The championship standings issue.. was just a note. Maybe not directly related to my post, but still, you are racing AI cars, and if their points are randomly shuffled and chosen, irrespective of their standings in races and with some names not even being present in races, then the AI race championship is little better than useless. So you basically need to win every race to have chance of finishing on top.
     
  19. SlimCharles

    SlimCharles Alien

    The AI of Assetto right now is a matter of midle terms. It is very enjoyble sometimes but it has serious issues.

    About the point system bug, is not related to the behaviour of the AI. It is an absolute mess I have to say. The same championship where I raced three races and I only got points in one (and winning it) today I have 68 points :mad: Jeez

    I suggest to pass by the thread on the bug section to make some noise

    http://www.assettocorsa.net/forum/index.php?threads/championship-mode-is-broken.46188/

    There will be a time when Kunos add a feature or some content without bugs, right?
     

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