Article: Why Force Feedback In Computer Simulators Does Not Work?

I guess $$ .. less powerfull motor needed with gearing ... but I`m sure people will happilly pay for belt driven logitech wheel with their reliability ... how is realiability on TM side these days? better?

 

Sure, it's a bit more expensive but it's a price I'd pay.
My last Logitech wheel (ok, that was much cheaper than a G-series) had gears as well and after a maximum of 2 years it started crackling like crazy and I was expecting failure any minute.
Plus the play increased over time.
The change to a belt-driven (Fanatec GT3) was big and that one actually felt altright and precise up to the point when the belt snapped (when driving around 200-250 km/h through Aremberg on Nordschleife, crazy moment …). Took over 5 years until then and was actually replaceable, so the wheel is still working today (but not in use anymore for obvious reasons).
The Fanatec wheel did make some crackling noises as well, but I think that was more due to the whole plastic stuff that was holding the motor, belt etc.

No idea, never owned a TM wheel and I don't read up a lot about them other than that most people think the pedals are ****.

 

So, just reversing the multipliers make no sense at all. The values are all over the place, more or less. So unless there's something I'm missing somewhere we're back to square one.

 

Could you make a histogram with that data? would be interesting to see the range and distribution.

 

I agree, it is propably really best to leave this as is, just so to not have people messing around and creating a fuss.
My only caveat with the multiplier was that I understand it acting as a normalizer and being neccessary to bring FFB levels for all cars into the range of consumer hardware, so I deemed it kind of redundant for DD wheels that can put out significantly higher forces.
Given that basically all modern road cars, and even the modern racing cars have powersteering, I will just dial in the FFB for the old cars to my liking, and what I think may be in the ballpark of the real car.
Having sorted that out, its basically down to one of these for me:

1.) https://www.simracingbay.com/product/ioni-hc-based-fully-assembled-osw-kit/
2.) https://sim-pli.city/collections/all/products/sw20-20nm-direct-drive-wheel
3.) The forthcoming Fanatec DD wheel, if that turns out to be a.) reasonable priced, and b.) powerful. Not so sure on the latter though...

Big advantage of Fanatec is that one will not have to mess around with getting a wheel with paddles and buttons to work.

 

double post...

 

Obviously having realistic weights isn't a priority, so maybe steering rack ratio isn't behaving realistically in terms of force multiplication. But really the vast majority of cars in AC would have power assisted steering, that tech's existed since the 50s. The ones that don't probably have lighter steering geometry to compensate. (eg. the Miura has 1500 degrees or something of lock)

 

They are pretty much the same, but keep in mind that the simplicity kit has fans built in. The other one (with the more commonly used 480W PSU) is fan-less.

Well yes, but imo that's not too much of an issue. There are some cheap buttonboxes available (e.g. see the video by Gamermuscle) and also high-quality stuff like the ones by Martin Ascher.
In most cases, you will have to live with a spiral cable to connect it, but that's also less of an issue than you might think.
At least I didn't have any issues with that so far. I had the case once that the cable got stuck behind one of the paddle shifters during a crash, but it was flexible enough that nothing took damage and since I crashed I had time to sort that out anyway. ^^

IMO the bigger advantage of Fanatec is that you can change wheels on the fly and don't have to load a new controls profile when changing the wheel (since the buttons pretty much remain the same).
Every time I mount or dismount the rim with the buttonbox, I have to exit the server/session, go to the controls menu and load another profile.
(The rim I drive H-shifter cars with doesn't have buttons or shifters.)
Certainly not a big issue, but can get a bit annoying when you're changing often.

If you're one of the guys that just stick one rim to their base and never change it, then it's much easier of course.

 

The range of multipliers go from around 0,8 to 21. Meaning if you have a wheel car that has 20Nm of torque (super stiff) as your hardest car, then the weakest ffb will be averaging 0,5Nm, which is practically no ffb at all. Of course some of these will have PS, but going from the multiplier alone, this is what you get.

Sent fra min G8141 via Tapatalk

 

hm yeah, that doesn't make sense. I wonder why though.

The ffb without multiplier should be the direct, unscaled ffb signal coming from the physics.
The overall scale might be wrong since it's not calibrated to your wheel torque, but the spread should be realistic.
Something is missing here.

In reality the wheel rim size plays an important role as well, but that should be separate from what we are discussing here.

 

How can you conclude the forces you will get only with the multiplier? I miss something in the equation.

 

That's just the range from highest (20 Nm here because that's the peak torque in the most common setup) to the lowest (based on the 20 Nm as well, but scaled down by the factors) torque the servo would expose.
Although even at 0.5 Nm, you could still feel differences, but as I said before with such low forces you really have to listen into your FFB wheel, otherwise you won't notice the differences.

 

Here you go:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-PwvY0k3I4MSXdWQWhLd085TEE

 

Thanks but that was not the diagram I meant, but rather a interval/rate distribution.
Doesn't matter too much though.

Edit: having a second look, I really don't get that data.
Can't see any sort of scheme behind this.

As I wrote in my first post in this thread, I thought the influence would mainly be down force and tyre size.
But looking at that data, that could not be case.
I'm confused.

 

A Rolls or Citroen would have 0.5 Nm

 

only if you take power steering support into account.

 

Yes, very much so, only one rim for me. Half decent, 320mm, and some buttons, that's all I should need.
Good to know that the spiral cable seems to be not that much of an issue. That indeed had me leaning toward a possible Fanatec wheel, where everything is neat and tidy.
Maybe I'll then just go with a simple buttonbox and some after market wheel.
Anyhow, looking forward to the simracing expo...

That's also how I thought it to be

I have a T300 for 2 years now, and it works flawlessly since day one. Mind you, the fan is indeed noisy if you play without head phones, and some early firmwares had the fan turning on too late, so the FFB would cut out or be reduced due to overheat.
The plastic pedals that came with the T300RS are utter c***, go at least for set with the T3PA pedals, which are much better.
There is also a nice 300mm alcantara rim version, but from my experience with the 280mm standard rim, I believe the T300 motor is a tad too weak for the larger rim.
T500 is a bit more powerful, has 300mm rim by default, but the FF is said to be less smooth.

 

I'd still suggest to at least try driving with a simple wheel for H-shifter cars. I like that very much, nothing to distract you, just a plain wheel and a shifter.
Also much better for drifting.

 

I mainly see
- light cars have light steering (312T, lotus 25, porsche 718 noticeably - open wheel, rear/mid engine, low downforce)
- gt3 cars have bizarrely heavy steering (mercedes esp.) probably cause they use power steering and prioritize geometry for performance instead

I mean if you take a car like the 718, which is probably 35% front weight out of 560kg total (so 100kg per tire) vs. the Porsche cayenne which is maybe 55% front out of 2100kg (so 600kg per tire), plus the cayenne has power assist... yeah a 20x difference from min to max is not so surprising.

 

This article flys over my head i just want to drive and feel immersed.