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Generic BOP them all!

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Leynad, Oct 21, 2016.

  1. Leynad

    Leynad Racer

    So many cars in AC nowadays and more coming, but apart from the old DTM (Alfa probably to fast) and GT3-class, you can´t mix them for a race, especially not in Multiplayer without to different lap times. It´s a shame.

    You could at least BOP the GT4-cars with the Cayman GT4 coming. I was a co-driver in a very fast lap with a 450 hp BMW M235i one time, just made by software. The Lotus GTE or GTC could be in this about 430 hp GT4-class, the Maserati could be the level for the others and the Porsche Cayman is certainly more close. So at least four cars could do a new balanced GT4 class similar to the GT3. Just invent a new form of "stage" to BOP them.

    But other cars as well. It´s always more fun to run different cars with different physics like one ist faster in the corners, one at the straights, than just boring cup-races everybody have the same pace.
     
    bk81 and schmron like this.

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  3. Epistolarius

    Epistolarius Alien

    You can only balance them so far - I'd much prefer if we had more extensive 'Balance of Performance' tools for offline and online sessions.

    The Cayman GT4 you mentioned isn't a GT4 car. The Cayman GT4 Clubsport that we are getting in the first Porsche DLC is also not a full GT4 car. It raced GT4 prepped by the teams and BoP'd in GT4(-like) series earlier this year but apparently Porsche/Manthey had to release an extra package to get full compliance with SRO GT4 homologation. The BMW M235i isn't a race car. The BMW M235i Racing we have in the game isn't a GT4 car, it's the BMW Sports Trophy Cup car with 300hp. The Lotus Evora GTE we have in the game isn't a race car. The Lotus Evora GTC and GX that you probably mean aren't GT4 cars, they're based on the Evora GT4 but raced in GTC and GX classes in Grand-Am (which doesn't exist anymore). They're quite a bit quicker than a GT4-class car. Why they didn't implement the Evora GT4 as well I don't know. Then to that come different seasons and production years. The Lotus 2-Eleven GT4 is a car from 2007, it's obviously not anywhere near the 2016 Maserati GranTurismo MC GT4 in performance. The only way this can be dealt with is either applying a drastic and unrealistic BoP to some of the cars to put them in line for a virtual GT4 series or - much preferable - add real competitors. Which obviously requires time and resources to do, and Assetto Corsa just doesn't licence full series.

    In GT3 - which is really the only class right now where we have enough cars of one series across several seasons to really worry about BoP - older generation cars are quite a bit slower (even though they could be virtually BoP'd to be competitive) and the field is relatively spread out when it comes to hundreds of a second. However that can be dealt with online with ballast, although a setting for air restrictor would be preferable (a similar effect is possible with the engine limiter in the setup of some cars).

    Then we have two older GT2 cars (three if you count the P4/5C) and the newer GTE Corvette C7.R which all now seem to be about on par with the GT3 cars instead of being a few seconds quicker. That's currently really the only thing that bugs me in terms of virtual BoP.

    As for a stage version for a new BoP you need to consider licensing and additional testing required. Plus, how far do you want to take some of the cars away from the real cars the data was based on at the time of implementation?
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2016
    speedrcr, Dookie, coret3x and 4 others like this.
  4. Leynad

    Leynad Racer

    I wasn't talking about an officially licensed GT4-class, but the cars mentioned are close enough on a track to balance them with more weight or power if needed. And when you click on GT4 in AC, the M235i appears as well like the KTM X-Bow. Wasn't my idea.

    With the weight option running a server you can already balance a lot of cars that are unequal in single player. Wasn't my idea. I just say: Deliver a function to do this in single player without Try & Error finding the right cars and values. And adding performance with turbo charged cars could be an option as well, like with the real cars. Or with better tires, breaks, Aero, what ever. I want more mixed car-grids without that widespread lap times and in reality it's possible, if the cars are close enough in performance. In titles like Forza it's possible even to an absurd extend without affecting licensing. So nobody can tell me, it's not possible.

    Finding out which cars could be balanced is easy as well. Just run the AI a couple of laps on two or three tracks and see, which lap times are close enough. There are quite some cars close enough and could be done just with weight or performance restrictions. Balance them and put them in a virtual BoP class. Kunos don't even have to tell which cars are optimized in which way, just have to mention the fact and deactivate the best lap function. The BoP doesn't even need to be perfect and it won't anyway for each track, but will provide better racing with mixed car grids and an easy option to set up car opponents.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2016
    bk81 likes this.
  5. WallyM

    WallyM Alien

    Take a look at this car ranking thread: http://www.assettocorsa.net/forum/index.php?posts/763362/

    It uses lap time data from the RSR rank to determine the relative performance of each car, by averaging lap times performed by a large number of drivers under the same weather conditions.
     
    Fat-Alfie, bk81 and liakjim like this.
  6. What do you mean by BOP?
     
  7. Leynad

    Leynad Racer

    Thanks & great job:D Seems like the minimum what Kunos should do: adding a performance rating to find equally fast cars or at least listing cars as opponents, that are really about as fast.

    I tried some about equal cars according to the list and they are certainly not perfect. For example the Lotus GTE Carbon is faster than the cars above the list and the GTE without Carbon is a better match. The best way to find out which cars are about as fast is something like "The Stig" (or me:rolleyes:) testing every car maybe ten laps, making lists and BoP the cars individually to each track.

    Just posted your list in the SRS-forum, because they seem to have no clue which cars are matching and hope, the mixed series are way more popular than all this boring cup-races if they are listening.

    Means Balance of Performance and the only way to mix very different cars like in the two GT-classes. It´s just a pity that you have so many cars in AC without a clue, which ones could race together. The AI is not working with different cars or classes, so Kunos is avoiding that issue, but Multiplayer-races with good people and clean racing like on Sim Racing System just needs some clues to make grids with different cars beyond GT3 and GT2. The list is a proof for the experience i had: Some GT3-cars like the 488 are to fast and the BMW GT2 is to slow. But some people are really fast with "slower" car. Maybe it´s better with tire wear and so on. "BOP them all" means, having at least one, better more competitive cars for each car-/track-combination you can choose.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2016
    bk81 likes this.
  8. WallyM

    WallyM Alien

    You will find that for any close cars, some people will be faster in one, and some people will be faster in the other. It's meaningless to look at just one person's times - you have to look at averages across a broader range of people if you want to know what cars will perform reasonably closely once you throw a grid full of different drivers together.

    The more data the better! So if anyone wants to improve this ranking, post more RSR rank times (set at 26 degrees).
     
  9. Leynad

    Leynad Racer

    That's for sure and the only way to find out is racing against decent people like I wrote today in this thread: http://www.simracingsystem.com/showthread.php?tid=528 (probably not available without subscription)
    The only way to get a decent BoP out of close cars is gathering racing data and adding weight when one car is to fast on a track. Like in the real world. And the kg per hp rate is maybe doing a better job than this list. The Lotus GTE Carbon for example is to low respectively to fast. Some other cars seem to match according to the list, but it's impossible if you look at the kg/hp ratios. But it's better than nothing and that's what we have in the current build.
     
    paul_wev likes this.
  10. ZX636

    ZX636 Hardcore Simmer

    Thanks for the detailed explanation. I was trying to build my own offline series with these cars but it feels unbalanced. Not sure why the game put them into the "same class". Also agreed about the last part of your post: adding real competitors is always the best choice, too bad other categories in the game suffer from the same issues.
     
    paul_wev likes this.

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