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Discussing Unreal

Discussion in 'ACC General Discussions' started by el_goe, Sep 13, 2018.

  1. Spunge84

    Spunge84 Rookie

    Vortex, it's amusing that you seem to think that we're being unreasonable in our comments, or even suggesting that Kunos are somehow trying to sabotage their own game by not implementing these things...........just to clarify - we're not suggesting that at all, neither are we having a go at the dev team in any way, shape or form. We're simply discussing UE4 as part of the thread and as VR users, we're just a little bit frustrated with the relative lack of progress the game has seen in just over a year in VR form. none of us are ranting, none of use are saying nasty things to anyone else, we're getting on with it and working with what we've got. I think that's a good thing though don't you? It shows that there are a passionate bunch of people actually trying to help the Dev team by highlighting these issues, in the hope that they can help move the game forward. It's just our own feedback as VR users and as i've said, we're just as entitled to do so as anyone else, without being made to feel like we're being unreasonable.

    It's not really fair to continually misinterpret feedback on general discussion threads like these as criticism and moaning at the dev team though, picking apart perfectly valid comments and feedback on the performance of the engine, and the fact that we're struggling when the fixes are already out there, as though we're having needless pops at the team because we're not. I know you can't use VR, but i'm sure if you could, then you'd have a very different opinion on the whole issue.

    As for you trying to understand why they would decide not to use a function, we've already given you plenty of suggestions. Cost? Lack of dev time to implement the tools? Lack of Dev knowledge in the tool to be able to implement it? Time? There are lots of possible, plausible reasons, but importantly, we've not actually heard anything from the dev team directly on the issue and how they plan to progress with it - which again was a point i was making before.

    I for one am happy with the direction on where the game is heading and i'm sure it's going to end up right up there as one of the best sims ever, it's already right up there! But it's undeniable that, in its current state, the choice to go with UE4, from a VR point of view, wasn't the best!

    Much respect to you all.
     
  2. vortex19

    vortex19 Simracer

    Just so we’re clear here, my original response was to Alex Bonner’s statement “If your not going to use the tools they are provided with then yes I’m saying they are holding back a proven VR technology that has worked wonders in other titles it was implemented within”. How am I misinterpreting this? Surely this is a criticism of Kunos for apparently not using this feature of UE4. My reply to that comment was that if it was as straightforward as just using the tools provided, it would be madness to not do it. Alex said he thinks that they are holding this technology back and I asked him why they would deliberately do this.

    I ask you now, as I asked Alex, if it was easy to measurably improve VR performance in ACC, using tools apparently already available within the UE4 engine, what earthly reason would Kunos have for not doing so?
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
    Typer and LATE4APEX like this.
  3. Spunge84

    Spunge84 Rookie

    Alex's point is factually correct though Vortex. If there is a proven technology out there, and a developer is not using it, and their game suffers as a result, then yes, they are absolutely holding back a proven VR technology. Pointing this out on this thread isn't a criticism of Kunos though and i think that's where you're being unfair, jumping on people who raise the point as though we're waving ant Kunos flags chanting nasty words at them!

    What i think you're getting hung up on here is that you think we're suggesting that they're not bringing this through on purpose to spite VR users for some reason? However, as i've said 3 or 4 times now, and as Alex also said too, we absolutely appreciate they may have valid reasons for not implementing it up to now......e.g (as previously said) Cost? Lack of dev time to implement the tools? Lack of Dev knowledge in the tool to be able to implement it? Time? etc etc etc - still, that doesn't mean that it's not there for them to implement it though does it?

    So the fact remains, the tech is there, they've not (yet hopefully) implemented it and therefore are holding back a proven VR technology from making the game better for VR users.
    As for your repeated question, absolutely nobody said or even suggested that it's easy. If it was, i'd have done it for them, sent it to them and said here you go guys, as a thank you for all your hard work and dedication to making the game better - i've done this for you to save you time and effort.

    One other very important thing i'd add here is that we're fast approaching the first DLC being released for the game. I'm absolutely going to buy it when it comes out, but again, i'd ask you to put yourself in VR users shoes, if you were using VR and were being asked to part with more money on the game to keep up to date with everyone else, be where the action is online and keep pace with other drives, before the game performance on the VR side was brought up to an acceptable standard at a decent quality, would you be happy knowing the answers are out there, but we've been given no reason by the developers as to why it's not there yet? I'm sure you'd see why others would be a little disgruntled if you were in this situation.
     
    alex bonner likes this.
  4. anthonylroy

    anthonylroy Simracer

    Are these tools in a NVidia UE4 Branch ?
     
  5. alex bonner

    alex bonner Racer

    Cost.
    Time.
    ACC for what ever reason not compatible with SPS.
    Not worth their time for a small group of whining VR players :D

    All perfectly valid points. Maybe plenty more reasons that only Kunos are privy too also.

    We want to enjoy it as much as everyone else but even with the best PC's the Big Grid races are unplayable. If it can't be done then so be it.



    https://developer.nvidia.com/vrwork...i-lens-matched-shading-and-single-pass-stereo
     
    Turk likes this.
  6. vortex19

    vortex19 Simracer

    @Spunge84 - we’ll clearly have to agree to disagree about how these statements are being interpreted or we’ll be going around in circles and diverting the purpose of this thread. There is, of course, another possible explanation for the use of the tools within UE4 - Kunos may have already used them and what we have now is the result. Hopefully this is not the case and I’m sure that they have a valid reason for not being able to improve VR at this time.
     
  7. Spunge84

    Spunge84 Rookie

    Even after trying (patiently and calmly) for 2 days to clear it up for you Vortex? I'm a VR user, as is Alex, as are all the others who've commented the same......If you want to sit on a high chair consistently ignoring anything we repeatedly try to clear up and clarify for you, in favour of continually assuming we're all just taking an opportunity to be unfair and nasty to Kunos, so be it.

    Maybe you should be a little more open to what people are saying from the other side of the fence, before you start commenting on something you know very little about due to your own personal dislike of VR,
     
  8. vortex19

    vortex19 Simracer

    Please don’t be condescending. My thoughts and interpretations are just as valid as yours. Just because someone else agrees with your view doesn’t necessarily make it correct. I’ve never said that anyone was being “nasty to Kunos”. I’ve consistently said that it’s clearly not as straightforward as just using the available UE tools or the VR implementation would already be better.

    What makes you think that I have a personal dislike for VR? I’d like to use it but, having tried the Rift and the Vive, I gave up on them both primarily because of bad motion sickness - some people just don’t get used to it. That doesn’t mean that I don’t want to see it working well in ACC. Decent VR implementation would almost certainly result in more players which would only be good for the game. Don’t jump to conclusions!
     
    LATE4APEX and GCCRacer like this.
  9. anthonylroy

    anthonylroy Simracer


    I Asked because if these tools are in a NVidia branch of UE4 then I think you would be a fool to use it in a production environment, until in gets merged in and tested fully within the main branch.
    Maybe these tools do not work correctly or only work on NVidia cards not AMD for example.
    maybe you need to write specific code to get them to work .
    Maybe the NVidia branch does not have the latest code from the main branch.
    Maybe Unreal will not support you unless you are on the main branch.
    Maybe NVidia want money
    Maybe Nvidia drivers are not certified for that branch

    There are lots of reasons why any code may not be used
     
    Typer, LATE4APEX, vlado Cro and 4 others like this.
  10. Spunge84

    Spunge84 Rookie

    Absolutely nothing condescending in anything that I've written at all to you Vortex, certainly no more condescending than any of your responses so far. In fact, the very reason i responded to you in the first place was because that was exactly what you were doing, pontificating to anyone who dared question anything about Kunos and their VR development (Oh, and polls, polls too!!)

    You're absolutely right, you have just as much right to comment as anyone else does. Yet having been been patient for 2 days, trying to explain that that very point is just as true for those in VR, you continually ignore anything anyone else says, consistently replying on the defensive as though we are attacking Kunos. It's like you're collecting points every time you reply to someone completely unnecessarily defending them despite the fact we've made it clear more than once that we're not even having a go.

    The irony amongst all of this that you'd tell someone else not to jump to conclusions is hilarious.

    Have a good day and keep racing Vortex.
     
  11. Spunge84

    Spunge84 Rookie

    Yeah most of these Tools are only available to Nvidia cards Anthony. The link is Nvidia specific.
    That's one of the points we're trying to make though - all of your points might be true, but the fact is we don't know. As of the time of this discussion about the performance of UE4 the performance on VR isn't good enough and that's simply what we're saying. As we've said, that might be for varying plausible and perfectly understandable reasons, but from the outside looking in when we can see these tools available and not currently being used, all we can do is comment on the here and now unless they come out and tell us exactly what's happening behind the scenes.
     
  12. alex bonner

    alex bonner Racer

    Excellent to get a reply from someone with some insight into how it all works. There are clearly lots of reasons thanks for pointing them out.

    Which would you put your money on? 1 or all?
     
  13. vortex19

    vortex19 Simracer

    @Spunge84 - I rest my case! Please let’s not continue this conversation any further.
     
  14. Turk

    Turk Alien

    *Whines harder* :D

    The one thing I've learned in Business is nothing is as easy as you think it is. You have to assume everything will go wrong and test the crap out of everything because it will wait until it's in the customers hands before it breaks given even the slightest chance.
     
    alex bonner and Spunge84 like this.
  15. Guido Trampe

    Guido Trampe Simracer

    Sorry. Thats just not true. I used tripples for years. Switched to Oculus. Enjoyed that for some time and its true. The immerson is unbeatable. But also the low res, low frames, high heat making it unusable for longer periodes, made me decide against it. Oculus is now for sale and 3x 32 are installed.
    So the: “there is no going back” is to short minded in my view... several people I know switched back for often same reasons.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
    martcerv, sps_for_race and GCCRacer like this.
  16. Spunge84

    Spunge84 Rookie

    Yawn, as I've already said.....have a good day.
     
  17. GCCRacer

    GCCRacer Racer

    Compliments all around - given that this is a hot topic, the discussion is still million miles more civil than other gamer boards.
     
  18. houssen

    houssen Gamer

    I think that Lord Kunos already explained what the problem was

    here is the message.......


    the one and only technique available for "sun shadows" right now is CSM (cascade shadow mapping).. and that's what everybody uses.
    The idea is to divide the visible scene in a series of shadow map to cover it. Because different part of the scene will be covered by a different shadow map, and that shadow map has to cover more and more space the more far is from the camera there will be a change in shadow resolution between different "cascades".

    The best thing engine can do is to make this transition as smooth as possible without wasting pixels (overlapping portions of shadow maps are a "waste").. UE4 is pretty exceptional in this but it can't cure the worst possible scenario with the guard-rails and the shadow that is "following" the camera.. it's definitely waaaay smoother than AC1 (that used 3 cascades and no smoothing/overlap) but the difference is so big that it's impossible to ignore.

    The other problem that we see in ACC is trees.. and it has nothing to do with CSM shadowing per-se and more to do with the fact that in order to have full blown 3D trees these also need to be heavily lodded (switched to a lower resolution model) in the distance or the framerate will crawl to a stop.
    The "shadow popping" we see is simply trees going from a lod where the leaves were not actual 3D triangles to a more detailed one with 3D leaves and branches.. because of this now there are lots of shadows where before there was none (because the tree was a simplified version with few triangles).

    so ya, they are pretty much present in every game out there with a variable time of the day and outdoor scene.. possibly made less obvious by the fact that you don't get fast moving objects in close proximity with shadow receiver as it's the case with racing games.
    AFAIK there's no real alternative to CSM... something was attempted some years ago with techniques belonging to a base idea called VSM but they come with so many gotchas and corner cases than no games used them. again AFAIK.

    Sadly it looks like something we'll have to live with until raytracing becomes viable.

    For the technically inclined here's a link to a description of CSM:
    https://developer.download.nvidia.c...aded_shadow_maps/doc/cascaded_shadow_maps.pdf

    and VSM:
    http://developer.download.nvidia.co...ceShadowMapping/Doc/VarianceShadowMapping.pdf
     
    rycil and Romneyb like this.
  19. pankykapus

    pankykapus KS Dev Team Staff Member KS Dev Team

    Before you get carried away, single digits...
     
  20. Cote Dazur

    Cote Dazur Alien

    Source?

    I agree, not true, you are the living proof, I also have no doubt that some people after using a wheel went back to a game pad, also some reverted from triple to go single, other sold their rig and went back to play forza on a game pad from the coach on their 55 inch tv after trying a proper SIM. All true, I agree.

    As you said "Immersion is unbeatable" so depending on how immersion is important to some one as opposed to other considerations, no VR will be either not an option or not.
    from my contact to VR user, most are not considering any way back and are ready to live with VR limitations instead of any other alternative limitations. I also definitely believe that a vast majority will stick with VR when they try it, hence VR numbers will rise.

    I would not sell my VR, as nothing else will give you the extraordinary opportunity to virtually seat in a VR car, feeling like your really are in that car, even if you don't even drive it, then stepping out of that car, walking around it, admiring the car body and details as if they are really there and then look around and feel as if you really are in the paddock at Spa, or standing on top of Eau Rouge and look at the other cars passing by. But that is probably just me, I must be weird.:D
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
    nangu and Loren Thomas like this.
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