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Driving Technique Discussion

Discussion in 'ACC General Discussions' started by Karsten Beoulve, Nov 26, 2019.

  1. GONKO

    GONKO Racer

    So, the temple of speed, the mecca of the newbie, the SA rating death chamber, where races are won and lost on turn 1.

    Anyway, I am quite a competent driver but cannot seem to break out of the 1.50.xxx range, and my lap seems clean. Conditions was hot lap mode with 43c track temp (what is optimal for hotlapping?? ).
    I've tried some tweaks to my setup and managed to squeeze a few tenths of a second out.
    I feel like I am losing time in the turn 4 chicane and possibly and the 8,9,10 sequence onto the back straight, even though it feels like the car has nothing more to give in this section.
    Where can we make up time on this track? I'm running pretty much a default aggressive setup with a few clicks here and there, nothing crazy at all.

    I'd love to hear you Monza stories, as I'm sure it's driven many of us to hurl some friendly driving advice in the chat, towards a kamakazi dive bomber.
     
  2. Cirith Ungol

    Cirith Ungol Racer

    What car do you use ? Maybe a video of your driving could help us. And for the temperature that's probably where at least you loose 1 sec, the colder the better (cold air => air is more dense => engine has more power + better downforce).
     
  3. Nebulozny

    Nebulozny Racer

    It's very easy to explain why people are faster than your time...11 turns times 0.2-0.25 sec gain per turn and there you go. But to explain how to gain that time in every turn is form of art when it comes to racing at Monza.

    I'm in 1:49 territorry now and remember how I thought there is no more way from me to squeeze additional tenths there when I reached 1:50 time after many months...but I changed little things here and there in my driving, not the setup and realized wow...I took this turn almost same way as before...but that "almost" meant I gained 0.1 sec there.

    Setup will only take you so far, unless something is way off in terms of handling...it's 99% up to your driving. To be constantly on the edge and so focused to get these alien times is just beyond me really. Aris has explained some alien tricks in his videos and you know, these blokes have different state of mind and understanding of vehicle behavior in game. Never ending chase for another 0.1 sec somewhere on the circuit.
     
    AndyK70 likes this.
  4. AudiSport

    AudiSport Racer

    I think Monza is all about how good you exit the corner because all the advantages you gain will be multiplied in the long straight.
    I mostly do 48 low - 47 high in Fast track. ~47 mid in optimum track. You have to slower your cornering speed(brake earlier) to maximize all your acceleration (and you all the curb).

    I think you also need to look at the wind speed and wind direction to shift your braking point. Low temp track (~20deg-25deg surface temp) is optimum for making good lap time. Over 42 degrees will struggle a lot.
     
    AndyK70 likes this.
  5. Winston

    Winston Hardcore Simmer

    Maybe post a video.
    I spend a lot of time (too much) on Monza the reason being I didn't like it. I felt the circuit doesn't allow the driver to spend enough time in the corners and so the driver makes a lesser contribution (than car setup) to the overall laptime. This is wrong, I do regular 1:48 and the occasional 1:47 conditions permitting and have found a few things that help achieve these times.
    Late braking is a must but corner entry has to be precise and controlled as you need to position the car for early throttle application for he straights.
    You have to find the very narrow window of grip where you are up against the limit of adhesion with the tiniest of slip if any.
    It's stuff which is generally true of all circuits of-course but on circuits with longer bends you could enter under the limit and drive up to it and not loose as much time, on Monza you have to be on the limit from the first application of the brakes right through the corner maintaining the best line for a fast exit.
     
    |BAD| DavE likes this.
  6. sissydriver

    sissydriver Alien

    Also very useful is to watch races. Some days ago there was a race at kyalami. MrGit stream. Alien overtook the car normal guy is driving and next corners you could see how late the normal guy brakes, and entry corner one or two times it seems that he can can fight back. But out of the corner the alien just disappears. Like a magic rubberband, turbo 200% or something else. Seems unreal how better he could accelerate. Every tenth you could step earlier on the throttle is amazing to see.
    After the two corners of hope the gap was 0.3s or so and a lap later alien was 2s ahead.
    So cool to learn from this guys.
     
  7. |BAD| DavE

    |BAD| DavE Gamer

    Exactly that’s the reason why Monza is by far not as easy as all the people think. It’s really challenging to achieve 48s in a consistent manner.
     
    Turk likes this.
  8. OscarMike

    OscarMike Rookie

    I can see a few things to improve from your onboard and I did my own laps with the same car and conditions so you can have some data to compare. First thing is trail braking, you are 100% on the brakes then you turn towards the apex while still fully on the brakes, release the brakes quickly but smoothly and then you increase the steering lock fully for the corner. What you should be doing is braking in a straight line as far as possible and then releasing the brakes at the same rate you are turning upto the apex where you should be full steering lock for the corner with no brake input. Think about the front wheels having a certain amount of grip that can be split between steering and braking, when you are braking in a straight line 100% of the grip goes to the braking while none goes to turning, mid corner 100% of the grip is used for turning while none is used for braking, as you trail brake into the corner you should ease off the brakes to say 80% while turning to 20% of the steering lock you need for the corner and gradually reduce braking at the same rate you increase steering so that braking and steering is split between the 100% grip the tyre can provide (The 80% 20% example is just one instance during turn in, you will smoothly ramp from 100% to 0% braking and 0% to 100% steering as you reach the apex while never exceeding 100% of combined braking and turning). What you do is brake 100% and turn to say 40% and so you are asking the tyres to give you 140% of what it is capable of when it can only give 100%. You should be able to see my data showing that I release the brakes at the same time I increase steering lock in the 'Driver' tab from the base ACC worksheet (I actually turn a fraction earlier than I release my brakes but it's very minimal and likely only ask for about 105% combined front tyre grip). I did my best to explain it but here is a video that should help, it's for motorcycles but the principle is the same and hopefully it explains it better:



    That's probably the most important improvement to make but another is that at certain corners you are turning too much, for example 7:55 and 9:11 in your video. You do it at most corners but some are worse than others, it feels safe to do it and ensures you're turning enough but it will scrub off speed. You can even hear the tyres squealing at 7:55 quite distinctly. I don't imagine you will find much pace by fixing it but you should still try to avoid it. From my experience the reason you make these two mistakes is because you can't feel it in the FFB. On my wheel the FFB is particularly weak with the Mclaren and so the effects are difficult to detect, just try your best to feel what the FFB is trying to tell you.

    At turns 9 and 11 you sometimes miss the apex, I'm sure you're aware of it when you do it but try your best to hit your apexes it matters alot and use the kerbs as much as you can at those corners. Also at turn 9 I suspect I'm spending less time off the throttle mid corner and I never come off the throttle fully, I found a couple tenths there taking it as aggressively as I could.

    Included my telemetry for a comparison, Hotlap with Clear weather preset at 13:00, 30C air 39C track, aggressive setup with tyre pressures around 28.2 - 28.4 (26.4, 26.5, 26.3, 26.5 - FL, FR, RL, RR) at the end of the lap, TC and ABS on 1 and I used pads 2 (forgot to change to 1 and didn't notice until I finished but I'm not sure which you used). Got a 2:18.2, probably another tenth or two to find by being a touch smoother and I wouldn't be surprised if you beat my time, I think you're capable of it with these improvements.

    One more thing, don't worry too much about comparing your lap times to anyone else because the track conditions are a massive factor. For example at Spa I've done a 2:16.xx for one of the SRO qualifying events but there are times on public servers when I can barely do a 2:19 with the conditions. Hotter temperatures will give you less downforce and possibly less power (not sure about lower power) because of lower air density, generally the colder the faster to an extent. You could probably do a 2:17 at 20C - 25C I reckon. Also an optimum track seems to have a lot of variability in the amount of rubber on the track, for example if there are 30 cars pushing hard in a CP race qualy there will be far more rubber on the track than in the hotlap mode. If I had to guess I think you could gain 0.5+ second compared to the hotlap mode on Spa when the track is actually fully rubbered in. So imo laptime comparisons are only valid when the track conditions are near identical like when using the hotlap mode.
     

    Attached Files:

    Winston and Plastic_Manc like this.
  9. Burnleyhome

    Burnleyhome Racer

    OscarMike,

    Thanks for the feedback. I'm going to jump on and try to do what you suggested with braking. The vid you posted is interesting as well.

    The download only included the idx file. I would need the id file which has the data.

    I'll report in on where I get to.
     
  10. Fingers_68

    Fingers_68 Rookie

    Hi Folks

    As an old new pretender to this sim I am always looking out for tips on how to save time and be faster.

    I have a CSL wheel and load cell pedals and find I am doing best on the brakes when I am progressively but swiftly applying the brake to full power. As apposed to slamming them on from 0 to 100% in a nano second, which is what it looks like when watching some other (faster) racers. I find I am more in control of the balance of the car and in a better place to be trail braking to the apex.

    I have tried the smashing the brakes tech but for me it just seems to unbalance the car. I seem to be able to brake at the same points and get to the apex with my tech, but without the motec this is just visual. I wonder if the visual brake indicator is not a good ref and the fast guys are not quite smashing on the brakes like a switch as it appears?
     
  11. LATE4APEX

    LATE4APEX Alien

    Depending on the type of corner braking for,... I personally initially jump all over the brakes in a straight line, then start to gradually release the brakes closer to the corner entry.

    But I'm not "fast" , so don't take my advice.
     
  12. AndyK70

    AndyK70 Simracer

    uhm... isn't trail braking is getting off the brakes, not applying them?
    Maybe I misunderstood this part.

    Well, as I stated in another thread a couple of minutes ago, I'm not an Alien... though still have a view on this topic. :D

    I slam the brakes when I'm braking in a straight line and I try to have a straight brake line as often as I can.
    For example at Kyalami going to the upper hairpin there is a kink to the left, right before it. I see many drivers driving it like a slight turn. I drive through that kink in a completely straight line and can brake in a straight line. That brake line is not aligned with the heading of the road, which means I start braking roughly in the middle of the track just a bit to the right off the center and keeping my front tires straight heading to the right side of the track. When it's time to turn in, my car is all to the right of the track.
    1. I brake in a straight line, my car does not have less load on the inside tires when braking while following the track
    2. which equals in more traction and better braking
    3. I elongate the braking zone by going slightly diagonal
    4. I still can take advantage of the most wide turn radius coming from the outside.

    Whenever it is not possible to straighten the car for braking I do not slam the brakes as it would unsettle the car like you told it. In these circumstances I also smoothly apply the brakes as fast as I can without unsettling the car.


    Of course only when I'm sure there is no other car on my right which I then would sent off the track with that maneuver.
     
    Turk and LATE4APEX like this.
  13. Turk

    Turk Alien

    You should be able to smash the brakes coming off a straight. I always go instant maximum brakes coming into T1 Monza for example. As long as the car is going in a straight line and has no steering angle the brakes should be more than capable due to all the downforce, even if it gets unsettled. Coming off the brakes effectively is another story altogether. I'd hold the brakes at maximum until I need to start turning, I'm probably not great at transitioning from full brakes to trial braking to allow steering input, which means that initial turn in probably suffers.

    It's only low speed braking zones or zones where you can't keep the front wheels straight that need some fancy braking and utilising the engine to help out.
     
  14. OscarMike

    OscarMike Rookie

    My mistake on the files, it was too large to include on the forum so here is a link:
    https://mega.nz/file/rplUjQRS#3gvpHomdgnBsKDt3hQDfeV-2NZtmf8EGu1hYNPkuVPM

    I'm not sure what would cause your instability when braking to 100% quickly, that is the best way to brake in a straight line like the others said. Otherwise your wasting time where you could be on the throttle for slightly longer and you will have a slightly shorter and therefore faster braking zone by getting on the brakes quickly. Might not be a bad idea to compare with my telemetry if you have Motec setup, hopefully it's a good enough baseline. Conditions are in my previous post.
     
  15. Fingers_68

    Fingers_68 Rookie

    Post merged into one massive thread, I'm now lost!???

    So any mention of the complex art of driving is just shoveled and lost into a massive old post.

    Because?
     
    AndyK70 likes this.
  16. Turk

    Turk Alien

    I'd imagine they just don't want to clog the general forum with a lot of specific posts. It might be worth opening up a driving technique forum?
     
  17. Burnleyhome

    Burnleyhome Racer

    Thank you sir.
    Looking forward to seeing where I can improve.
    I have started to look when I'm turning while 100% braking and correct myself doing it.
    Muscle memory is great apart when its remembering incorrect information.
    I believe that I brake around the same place, but I 'feel' that I'm carrying too much speed when I want to turn in, so I miss the apex by braking longer.
    I need to retrain myself to brake earlier so I can achieve a similar turn-in point so I can start to trailbrake at that time.
    I can probably achieve faster turn-in and apex speeds doing this as I'm 'loading up' the tire instead of 'bumping' it.
     
  18. Fingers_68

    Fingers_68 Rookie

    I'm brand new here, I've posted 3 new threads.

    The second was just deleted and the third moved to some old post mingled in where no one now gives a damn about.

    Is there any other forums for ACC available without such bizzar management?
     
  19. LATE4APEX

    LATE4APEX Alien

    What were the 3 threads you created ?
     
  20. Creegz

    Creegz Gamer

    I would presume your thread being merged into this one was because it was directly related to this thread or the questions were already answered in here, @Fingers_68. But that's just speculation since I have not seen your other 3 posts. However, most of the time when the mods do stuff like that it's to avoid clutter. It can be frustrating to search in a forum and see numerous posts of the same thing.
     
    LATE4APEX likes this.
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