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Driving Technique Discussion

Discussion in 'ACC General Discussions' started by Karsten Beoulve, Nov 26, 2019.

  1. Luis Branco

    Luis Branco Alien

    I don't know how you brake without ABS, but with me it's not just a question of how deep the brake pedal goes but, braking until it starts to lock and then modulate the pedal, releasing a tiny bit to unlock, pressing again a tiny bit more until it locks and so forward.
    I find this modulation harder to do the closer the car is from the turn in, because the tendency to locking is higher as the speed decreases and, simultaneously, each time the brake pedal is pressed must be less than the previous one, as the speed is reducing.

    With ABS is just a matter of pressing the pedal, followed by a continuous release as the car is approaching the turn in.

    ABS On

    chksix and Salvatore Amato like this.
  2. Jetsun

    Jetsun Rookie

    ok, let's say that as I'm lazy I prefer the hard way ;)

    oh and may I ask what is TC2 in the setup?
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
  3. Coanda

    Coanda Alien

    Jetsun likes this.
  4. Luis Branco

    Luis Branco Alien

    That's not comprehensive in the context of what we're talking about, precisely because ABS off requires to have to work the brakes but, ok, let’s leave it there.
  5. thamahn

    thamahn Rookie

    HI OP,

    I have been following and enjoying this thread towards your personal track self improvement. It looks like you maybe maximizing all of the performance that you can get out of your T300 wheel & pedal set.

    Have you considered a Load Cell brake mod for your T3PA's yet?

    If you do not want to spend money and just master your current T3PA's, I can understand that. Sim-Racing can become a fun money pit. However, if you have the money, and want to stay within the Thrust-master ecosystem, I would consider a Load Cell brake mod.

    I personally recommend mods from bfelectronics because their mods have an adjustable sensitivity knob and the pedals still maintains a good pedal throw.

    IMHO, the ultimate Thrust-master brake upgrade would be the T3PA Pro pedals with the bfelectronics Load Cell kit.

    Lastly, I am not affiliated with bfelectronics in anyway, I am just a satisfied customer who was working through braking modulation issues at one point.

    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
  6. I'm a bit depressed since i'm currently unemployed and it's not something i'm used to after 18+ years... So i do not plan byuing into new equipment...

    Also i doubt that just using better equipment can make much of a difference in my case... I have to dig out at least another full second on pace not on a "magic" lap.

    @n1lyn I've been studying motec datas and trying to improve by braking earlier getting on throttle with more strenght right away.... So far i just managed to crash a lot and lower my CC and CN ratios :D

    Seems i do not trust the car enough and when i do i get punished. It's a real shame there's no datas in motec about where on the track one is (lines) but i'm pretty sure we have more or less the same by now.
  7. Jetsun

    Jetsun Rookie

    So @Karsten Beoulve , I did around a hundred laps with ABS 0 TC 1/0 focusing on finding constancy (with ratings off, lot of crashes a first) and a bit of pace (I was 50'). And now that I'm a bit confident, I just got back to ABS 1 TC 1 (n1lyn setup) and oh boy, when Nao said you find a new car he meant it!! I'm so much confident with the car, like night and day, at the second hotlap I did a 37'2 whereas before all that I wasn't able to drive around aggro setup and had a PB of 38'7 with stable.
    I have other things to do, so did not continue the session, but just took the time to share that with you because the difference in handling that car is so impressive, that might give you an urge to try that ;)
  8. I usually go with abs at 1 or 2, my main problem is with power delivery... i spin out too easily or lose rear and have to correct wildly
  9. thamahn

    thamahn Rookie

    I understand. You will get through this, stay focused on your job hunt. Things will work out. Godspeed my friend.
    Piret2000 and Karsten Beoulve like this.
  10. n1lyn

    n1lyn Racer

    It all sounds a bit weird to me. didn't u say in your initial post, that you race since Grand Prix 2 times? I mean you probably did a lot of laps but your laps you posted earlier looked rather like you'd be new to simracing, like you didn't watch racing in tv or never watched anyone else.

    I don't mean this as an insult, but it really looked like you had no idea where the car should be in the roughly 3 different phases we have: braking (usually outside), corner (inside once or twice at the apex[es]), Exit (outside unless immediate corner after -> compromise).

    It seems you improved time wise, but would you mind posting another video with the line you do now?

    Or is it different, and you know the theoretical line but are just unable to get the car there? I might just lost the perspective I must have had when I started simracing, where all this was new to me. But since you should have some experience I just really wonder. Maybe your wheel or pedals are just setup completely wrong and give you no or wrong feedback?

    All this talking about driving with aids off or whatever recipe. I don't really believe in it. It sounds wrong to me that you crash the car. it's almost impossible with TC on. Go by 3-5 for abs and tc if my settings are too aggressive. I just have a feeling something is wrong. Someone with that amount of experience not being able to control a gt car with electronic aids on a decent level just sounds suspicious - for some reason you seem unable to interpret what the car tells you. And with driving for 10+ years, that shouldn't be a thing.
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
    Sexton Hardcastle likes this.
  11. Jetsun

    Jetsun Rookie

    Well, that did quite a nice job on me, may be it is just me. But in fact that make very much sense, it helps fine tune foots, and foots n wheel coordination, once you know the theoric line isn't it all that matters to bring you finely on this line? Also it forces u to be very patient to building up consistence. Anyway when I came back to the car even with just 1 in both aids, I felt muuuch more confident.
    I've just tried 3 laps w/ aids back, i'll need to build up pace to see up to where I can go, but I was amazed by the difference of handling n confidence, thus my enthusiastic post

    It's hard for you to test it now because you have already all what it gets, so I, having only like 3 hundred of simracing, did the test for you, feelling that this advice of Nao made much sense, n I'm very happy I did.
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
  12. n1lyn

    n1lyn Racer

    Yeah, i tried to indicate with the word "believe" that it's kinda up to personal opinion. I just expect a whole different problem for him and instead of fuzzing around with this I'd rather find the core issue, which i suspect somewhere else really. Can be wrong of course.

    Besides: you could use the ABS setting to practice better braking as well: Just aim for not triggering the ABS which is quite easy to notice as its insanely loud, but it doesnt come with ruining your tires each time you fail to not lock up.
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019
  13. You are not insulting at all. My results and laptimes are :D

    I totally do not trust what the car is doing. Most problematic of all is throttle input (braking is ok) I seem to lose the car even with very high TC settings. I start to think it may be due to accelerating with too much steering already applied? Also i always feel like that i have understeer after leaving the apex even if i apply gradual throttle like you saw in motec before. Did you see my latest Motec i uploaded?

    Another problem i have is finding a comfortable view setting. It's particularly infuriating that in ACC no 2 cars use the same setting so changing from one car to another makes me re-tune the setting, and in many cases i can't find a proper one no matter what (reason for me not using certain cars AT ALL). I'm playing with the internal view btw... Is that an hindrance?

    BTW i did look at your replay countless times and i feel i more or less got it, what i can't do is applying it in practices; i tried to learn a bit of motec and from my limited understanding of it, in some occasions i'm reaching full throttle like 15 meters after you do, gradually (to avoid spinning out) while you slam on the pedal judging motec like it was an on/off button.

    What wheel/settings do you have and use?
  14. n1lyn

    n1lyn Racer

    got a fanatec 2.5 but used a g29 before. there's almost no difference in laptime once used to any equipment.

    I try to sit in a position with the lowest fov possible where I can still see the dashboard info. I still suspect the automatic looking to the apex confusing you, because you can't see oversteer coming visually with the head movement being delayed and out of sync with the movement of the car. that's also why you can't catch an oversteer, because it surprises you when you could've noticed it way earlier.

    How much rotation do you use on the wheel? I suggest having 900° set in the game and driver and let the game handle the rest. your wheel in front of you should be in sync with the wheel of the virtual car.
  15. Minolin

    Minolin Staff Member KS Dev Team

    I feel like we should focus on this, though I haven't seen a recent video of your driving. Any problem you give us - especially the "I have no confidence in what the car is doing", covered up by the videos tell me you need to start at 0, which is reliable braking.
    If you cannot brake in a way you have pretty much the desired entry speed and track position, nothing else can work out - or appears random, which makes it a lottery with the character of not understanding when it doesn't work, resulting in no confidence.

    If this is true ("if" is meant literally, only a working theory), nobody does you a favor moving to ABS/TC-less learning, or analysing corner exits in motec. Again we all have the problem that we can't really judge your situation in depth, but my impression is that you want to get this solved too quickly, and possibly refuse going back to the roots.

    Just in a comparison, I'm at the moment learning a "new" track. I have several thousand km on this, but in other sims (with other physics and not exactly this track model). My approach is to run 30 minute hotstints, usually 3 or 4, but at least one a day.
    I take down my hotstint time in my excel sheet, which is automatically giving me the average laptimes over 30 minutes (15-16 laps). Then I re-watch the entire 30 minutes in the replay, and look out for systematic errors. When I look at my performance, it's only the average laptime, 1-4 per day. I couldn't even tell what my best lap is. And yes, this will take ages - at least weeks until I start to feel really comfortable here, hitting the limits of my talent. And I'm only trying to get myself into the best position on this track, not even changing and improving my abilities - that would require more effort and time. Just for the perspective, things take time and if you try to rush and shortcut, there's only frustration waiting for you. I may be a slow learner and you can be 5x as fast; we're still talking about days and not 10 laps until you un-learned the old behaviour and settled down to a new one.
  16. so.
    you are not a total sh1t. you can control the car for sure.

    your problem is that you don't know how to turn the car. infact when you release the brake you go wide many times.

    first of all find some markers to get some consistency in slow speed (in terms of laptimes).

    second, learn trailbraking, you are not trailbraking.
    break straight, when your brain tells you to turn the car, start releasing the brake until you get to the corners. not always until the Apex ok?

    I am sure that once you learn how to turn the car via trailbrake, the rest will be as easy as to breathe. because I think you can control it.
    go to Misano first, learn how to trailbrake there, then go to monza and brands hatch. if you can trailbrake in every corner of those tracks, you will already be able to fight with the 99% of the population.

    final step, don't try to do this before being able to trailbrake. when you go into the corner, bring a lot speed, stabilize the car using the trottle and try to stay on trottle as much as you can.

    If you go on the trottle without turning the car by trailbraking, you will go too wide and you will be able too go on trottle when it is too late.

    trailbraking allows you to brake very very very later then with separate brake-wait-trottle.

    learn to trailbrake. I started my simracing experience the 14th of September 2018, ACC day one, I have always been faster then the average, but I was 5 tenth to 1 second slower then the best out there when it was better, 2 seconds when I was slower. My problem was that I thought I was trailbraking already, but I I wasn't.

    Now I'm slowly closing the gap.

    Always aim for these full contact patch of the wheels, in other words from 27.5 to 27.8 psi.

    You can also go for 28.2, but if you spin you lose contact patch.

    aggressive setups are super fast if you learn what I told you.
    To give you a comparison, before learning trailbraking, I used bb at 53.6 to turn the car while breaking, also using minimum breaking power, I lost 2 month studying setups. and now, with aggressive setup and sufficient trailbraking and coasting, I'm one second faster.

    hang on, accept that your driving has to be improved and completed. trailbrake is mandatory. coasting is mandatory in cars with less traction.
  17. Nao

    Nao Alien

    @Karsten Beoulve Didn't want to mention it when you posted the video initially, but i'd agree with n1lyn. The driving we saw from your video feels like a newcomer to simracing. I say that not to disrespect, but to hammer the point that something very basic is wrong here. So maybe you need a "reset". Change your gaming setup significantly (both hardware and stuff like FoV), even change to other sim or something and try to get comfortable in new situation. This often helps nailing down what was the issue.

    And i do agree with Minolin with the part on the braking. In fact i'd say that when people don't have good sense of the car, their "mid corner" starts at the 100m board. Meaning that the initial braking point has very big influence on everything that happens in the corner. Including exit, as how far you are turned at apex decides how wide you will go, and even worse the slip angle of the rear tyres at apex (which is often carried over from corner entry) decides on how the car will handle acceleration. So definitely start with cleaning up braking.

    Jobless myself too atm, stay strong and good hunting!
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019
    chksix and Piret2000 like this.
  18. Tim Wilson

    Tim Wilson Simracer

    This may have been overlooked by most of us.
    Watching your laps, I can see this when you brake, when you try to modulate mid-turn, and when you go on the throttle at exit. It sounds like you have a delay in actual throttle liftoff- like you are still dumping fuel after you initially brake. I also hear it when you are mid turn and lightly feathering. I was watching your video and thinking "why is he using so much throttle mid turn?". Then just now I found this post and it made perfect sense.

    You should look at your drivers and if you have a calibration tool use it. Try doing a fresh driver install or otherwise search for a how to video. When you have it working properly you can verify it in the games controller setup page. The indicator on the throttle should flow smoothly as you press the pedal and match the throw in % as it moves through it's range.
    EDIT: The game ACC don't show you pedal movement so you will have to rely on your wheel software. Maybe I was thinking about AC.
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019
  19. First of all sorry for being this late answering. Now, point to point...

    I'm not in any rush; i have to post the replay from latest session since that first one is not very outdated (i posted only the motec about it my current sessions with a best of 46.5). May i need to go back to roots? Maybe, no problem with it. I still feel like i'm at zero, so restarting is not an issue. But honestly, i do not feel braking is the issue; i lose most of my time from the apex onward, when i have to apply throttle.

    I've been training for that since i was linked those youtube videos and i can see difference in motec datas; so i might be "getting" somewhere. I think too many are checking my very first video and not the motec i posted after trying to work out those videos techs... If i have a minute i'll post a new video from that motec data (i hope i haven't deleted it)

    Again i do think my braking is not the main culprit of all the time i lose, but hey i'm the bad driver so maybe i'm totally wrong with it... But motec shows i get on full throttle the way i described. Could it be due to wrong braking points/slip? surely! But i lose the car often even with the smallest amount of wheel turned, so i get on throttle very very cautiously and late.

    I did a fresh driver install and firmware update a couple days ago. Inside the thrustmaster tool the pedals seems to work perfectly smooth, so i think they are ok?

    On ACC controller settings and ingame the course seems to be less "fluid" or maybe shorter run from low throttle to full throttle?

    Also i'm not sure, but i got the game first day on Early Access and always updated it without any re-install, could it mean anything?

    Again, thanks to all the posts and suggestions, i feel like i'm making all of you waste your time on a lost cause, and that i can't exactly express the issues i'm having.
    So thanks for all of you guys and @Minolin whose patience and time i've been taking from more important stuff :p

    I'm not surrendering in any case. I love simracing and this game to the bits and i'm sure i'll find the way to feel at home with it if i keep up going.
    EsxPaul, Jetsun, chksix and 2 others like this.
  20. Tim Wilson

    Tim Wilson Simracer

    Minolin already spilled the beans:oops:- He's playing with Suzuka!:D
    Karsten Beoulve likes this.
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