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Dynamic Damper - Details

Discussion in 'ACC General Discussions' started by Pax, Oct 28, 2018.

  1. Pax

    Pax Rookie

    Hello All,

    Those of you who have been around for a few years might remember me; I developed servo based FFB systems during 2012-2014. After a longish hiatus I am now back (I think :S) and have since this summer continued development of FFB technology. I have now run ACC for a few laps and made a quick analysis of some of the FFB details to see if there was something I could optimize for. The most interesting seemed to be the dynamic damper feature, so I did a quick analysis of the data ACC puts out to the FFB device on that.

    I did a search of this forum and I could not find the information, so I present it here: In ACC 0.2.1 the dynamic damper function is only active when the vehicle moves at a velocity <= 10 km/h. That was at least what I saw in the data I dumped in my quick analysis. Kunos etc. I am sure can fill in any blanks :)

    To me it seems it could be interesting to utilize dynamic damper at all velocities, so it would be interesting to hear the reasons not to. I guess one argument is that the regular constant force updates @111 Hz (I saw you already know the frequency) should be able to do an adequate job, rendering the damper "canned effect" superfluous. I will do some testing on my own to try to come to a conclusion on that.

    As a bonus I give you a constant force FFB graph snippet from running the Bentley at Nürburgring.

    [​IMG]

    Lastly I should also add that from my initial testing, the FFB in ACC is in my opinion better than in rF2, iRacing and AC - so good job Kunos Simulazioni.

    BR,
    Fredric
     

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  3. Typer

    Typer Simracer

    Welcome back, though I wasn’t about back then. Out of interest, what is this servo based FFB you worked on?
     
  4. manuel_rendo

    manuel_rendo Racer

    Interesting..very...
    This dynamic damper is a big unknown FFB factor...in Acc..it is clear that as soon as the car moves,,it completely dissapears...so if this is correct what is the point of selecting 100% 75% or 80%? Dynamic dampening What will be good for?
    I do not notice any difference at different speeds only when the car is stationary or slow..very slow..I can feel this
    Heavy damper thing.
    Regarding FFB I agreee ..since 0.2 it is a massive leap forward.i thinks it is better than Rf2 (except for the tyre deformation feeling),,iracing,,and slightly worse than race room (in race room you have more subtles indications when
    Grip is lost)...but considering that there are hardly 4 slides to tweak FFB at the moment I would say that with a little of improvement
    Could be the very best of all...

    Welcome back
    Rgds

    Manuel R
     
  5. PhilS13

    PhilS13 Alien

    Definitely not the case here. Dynamic damping is very much alive at any speed.
     
    Coanda and mms like this.
  6. Poguinhas

    Poguinhas Alien

    I went back to AC1 a few days ago and it just felt unplayable. Even though I use the LUT Generator that vastly improves FFB, I just cannot feel the load on AC1 nearly as well as on ACC.
    I find it really weird that so many people are criticizing the FFB on ACC.
     
    TheMarshal and Fremen_78 like this.
  7. Aristotelis

    Aristotelis Will it drift? Staff Member KS Dev Team

    You got slightly confused on the dynamic damping.
    Dynamic damping works constantly and becomes even more important as the speed raises. It is a result of the gyroscopic forces from the wheels. It makes the wheel more "unwilling" to move from whatever angle the front wheels point, and the faster you go the more it does so. That's why on some wheels would completely saturate the signal and cause a very flat FFB feelings. Also alienates some people that are used to a completely free rotating FFB wheel (wrongly but hey) because it gives an initial damping force in whatever rotation you force the wheel to go. The dynamic damping slider lets you configure more or less amounts of this force.

    What you feel that disappears at very low speeds, is the damping of the steering wheel when a car is stopped or the filtering for vibrations not sure.
    In the documents/assetto corsa competizione/config/controls.json, you'll also find a couple of extra FFB lines, make sure you find the ones of the wheel and not of the joypad.
    "damperGain": controls the damping when the car is stopped or at very low speeds
    "midDamper": controls the general amount of damping that is fixed for any speed
     
  8. Pax

    Pax Rookie

    Hello Aristotelis,

    What I did was to log damper parameters sent from the Windows host to the FFB controller. I logged damper gain, pos and neg coefficient and saturation with the following ACC settings:
    Code:
    "forceFeedbackGain": 0.59999996423721313,
    "steerScale": 1,
    "steerLock": 720,
    "dynamicDamping": 1,
    "roadEffects": 1,
    "minDamper": 0,
    "damperGain": 1,
    "minimumForceFeedback": 0,
    "brakeGamma": 1,
    "combinedPedals": 0
    When vehicle velocity is >10 km/h the updates to the above damper parameters stop arriving at the FFB controller. Or is it the case that you pause updates until you reach a certain velocity? I did not test going very fast I think after I observed the 10 km/h threshold.

    BR
    Fredric
     
  9. Aristotelis

    Aristotelis Will it drift? Staff Member KS Dev Team

    No no your findings are perfectly fine
    It’s just that the dynamic damper is not an actual damping force but a proper physics based force that can seem as a damping effect. For sure it won’t show up as a damping feed from the windows driver.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    LeDude83 and mms like this.
  10. Pax

    Pax Rookie

    I see. You have implemented the "damping"/gyro effect in the physics engine and combines it into the single constant force signal output then.

    If what you are after is in part a linearly increasing counteracting torque with steering wheel velocity I would recommend you to use the damping FFB effect produced internally by the FFB controller for that.
     
  11. WallyM

    WallyM Alien

    That sounds interesting. How did you do that?
     
  12. Josefhead

    Josefhead Racer

    I don't think that would be a good idea because of differend drivers and also differend userprofiles.. and people setting up drivers sometimes "wrong/strange"..

    if you use a dampening produced in the software.. it is independend by the driver and settings in it...

    if it would use the driver internal dampening.. then you would have again another factor between all those people... some "I turned dynamic dampening all the way up.. but don't feel a difference to 0" (because they deactivated drivers dampening) ... and such stuff...

    it also means that the driver does need to have dampening then... maybe some wheels don't have dampening... especially when coming from the diy scene.. that might be a thing.. if people develop their own driver..

    for example I wouldn't know how it would work with an mmos driver... I can set dampening in there yes.. but it is a static dampening... if I set it to 0 would the game then still can utilize the drivers dampening? ... also I like ACCs internal dampening more then the dampening from the mmos.. the dampening of acc feels a bit smoother

    I think driver internal dampening and such stuff should be there to tune the hardware to your likings... game internal dampening such things is there to dial in the game..

    like in audio if you measure and filter and EQ a PA System (or hifi or whatever) to have the desired response of the audio system (the driver).... and then there comes the music that is played on it that are mixed and EQed to their specific needs/flavor...(games internal things)


    I don't know if you can drive the damper of the driver dynamic by the game... but even if when.. I wouldn't see a benefit of it.. just more problems.. if it's directly in the game.. it's directly from the source...

    but I am not a ffb developer so I can misunderstand this all completely...

    but in my opinion it's perfect that it is done by ACC itself... in that way.. the developers can also tune it more to their needs I think..then if it goes over a third application and so on..

    because the dynamic dampening is indeed very dynamic it doesn't only depends on the speed and so on but realy what is happening... for example when the tires are not on optimal pressure you can feel it a lot more dampened then when they are on pressure and such things..

    and since we got a slider for it.. we still can tune it to our likings and needs
     
    LeDude83 likes this.

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