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Every time I try to trailbrake this happens. What I am doing wrong? How can I improve?

Discussion in 'ACC General Discussions' started by Piret2000, Nov 28, 2019.

  1. Piret2000

    Piret2000 Racer

    I brake hard, but when I start to release the brake my rear starts spinning. I can only trailbrake when I brake so hard I'm too slow. Is because the 720 doesn't like trailbraking? I don't want set ups tips, I want to improve driving

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  3. SimGuy_1

    SimGuy_1 Simracer

    It is bit hard to judge from this camera because steering input is very critical to get the full picture.

    I will state my opinion (I only drive mid and rear engine cars since EA of ACC so i hope my experience is useful )

    *You are getting off the brake pressure little bit abruptly from 100% to 50%(or lower) quite quickly

    *The braking point you choose is late apex type which is fine BUT from my experience mid and rear engine car rather sacrifice the late apex benefits and choose early apex entry to maintain stability.
    I'm not saying that MID or rear engine cars cannot late apex brake etc but if you want to do this type of entry then you have to get on braking early so your good amount of braking is done when steering angle is LOW.

    Good thing i noticed is that you got on POWER when car began to slide and this is ESSENTIAL driving technique for mid and rear engine car because on moderate(sometimes even full throttle) amount of throttle you can actually make the car stable by transferring grip to rear.

    Lol this car is nothing just give the old porsche try haha. try late apex trail braking that car, you will praise the stability of mclaren after that (not saying that mclaren is easy just old porsche will make you appreciate better aero cars more)
  4. Piret2000

    Piret2000 Racer

    I just start to move the wheel and my car decides to spin, next time it happens I'll post a 1st person video

    I tought trailbraking was slaming the brakes and then release but leave a bit of pressure aplied, should I release it more slowsly?

    So, is better to brake a bit early and release the brake slowly?
  5. f1200racer

    f1200racer Gamer

    This is from Wikapedia - explains Trail Braking pretty well

    In four wheel vehicles trail braking is using the brakes past the corner entrance, as opposed to the normally taught practice of releasing the brakes before starting the turn. It creates weight transfer to the front tires, increasing their traction and reducing understeer. It works best in light vehicles that have their brake bias to the front.

    In order to be properly performed, the driver must have excellent sense of the vehicle's behavior and be able to keep the braking effort within very tight limits. Excessive braking effort may result in the vehicle heavily understeering, or - if the brake bias is set to nearly neutral - in the rear wheels locking, effectively causing the vehicle to spin as in a handbrake turn.

    Once a driver has mastered trail braking, it can help enter the corners at higher speeds, or avoid an accident if the driver has entered a corner at a speed exceeding the vehicle's or driver's capabilities.
    1. Keeps load on the front tires so the car will turn into the corner better. That is, it will rotate (change direction) better.
    2. Helps a driver use all of the tires’ traction throughout the corner. If he gets to the turn-in point and suddenly takes his foot off the brake pedal as he turns in, there will be fraction of a moment when he is not using up all of the tires’ traction. He could be using more and carrying more speed.
    A side benefit of trail braking (although this shouldn’t be considered a reason for using it) is that it often allows the driver to begin to brake later, since he is ending the braking later.

    Trail braking is not used in every corner.[5] There are turns, especially very fast ones, where the driver wants to be squeezing back on the throttle about the time he is turning into the corner, since this helps the car’s balance and the overall grip level. As a general rule, the slower and tighter the turn, the more the driver will use trail braking to help rotate the car; the faster and more sweeping the turn, the less the driver will use trail braking.[13]
    Pernando Alomso and Jetsun like this.
  6. SimGuy_1

    SimGuy_1 Simracer

    It depends on how much abuse a mid engine car can take while trail braking
    generally i never slam the brakes while i'm turning.
    i get on maximum brake power in straight line then as i'm turning the wheel i start to releasing the brake pressure steadily.
    Trail braking from what i understand is not to simultaneously turn and use 100% of braking, yes you have to use the brake JUST enough to get the front rotated.
    So purpose of trail braking is just for rotation before the apex,you still have to get your majority of braking done in rather straight line or with as little steering angle as car ALLOWS.

    Also you can use higher ABS to stop car from over rotating.

    It really depends on corner type, a fast corner with huge aero dependent the car with lose control quickly.
    But in slower corner where mechanical balance is crucial you can abuse the trail braking more (also speeds in such corners are low so not enough momentum to spin out due to heavy rear engine)
    Piret2000 likes this.
  7. f1200racer

    f1200racer Gamer

    Just a guess on my part since i haven't driven the 720 but where is the brake bias set? is it more neutral or forward? if its neutral it might be causing your over steer. also that appears to be a fast sweeper of a corner from silverstone. I would in that instance not use trail braking and be off the brakes before turn in.
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
  8. Piret2000

    Piret2000 Racer

    57 %, you can see it on the HUD
  9. This is how I teach trail braking to my students, its very simplistic but it gets the theory across from a drivers point of view (as opposed to an engineers point of view):
    A tyre can only give you a maximum of 100% of its grip. If you ask for more than 100% the tyre will start to slip.
    Your initial braking will be in a straight line so you can use 100% of the grip of the tyre to slow the car in a straight line as you don’t need to turn.
    As you get to the corner you need to turn in but you can’t because you are using all your tyre grip to slow down. So as you add a bit of steering you need to remove a bit of brake. For example, add 10% steering, remove 10% brake. Add another 10% steering, remove another 10% of brake and so on. Keep doing this all the way into the apex, this keeps you slowing but also keeps weight over the front wheels to aid turn in and as you turn tighter you transfer more of your grip ‘request’ from the tyre from longitudinal to lateral whilst never exceeding 100% overall request.
    A way to think about linking the release of brake with the increasing steering lock is to imagine the steering wheel and brake pedal are connected by a piece of string. As you turn the wheel into the corner the piece of string pulls the brake pedal up.
    Thug, GCCRacer, Zinny and 4 others like this.
  10. SimGuy_1

    SimGuy_1 Simracer

    +1 to this. you just have to sync the braking and steering input (angle)

    I must say though it is not a 1:1 ratio
    i.e if you add 10% more lock you don't need necessarily have to release 10% brake.
    it really depends on car and setup
    so sometimes it can be even less brake pressure required or sometimes it requires more brake release to go with steering input.
  11. Also the corner in the video isn’t a trail braking corner. A fast corner like this needs you to be off the brake and on the power at turn in to keep the weight towards the rear wheels to make the car more stable.
    As a general rule of thumb, a tight corner has a late apex and the slowest point of the corner (the point where you release the brake and get back to power) is close to that apex, you brake as deep as you can in-towards that apex, using this trail brake to help rotate the car. A fast corner has an earlier apex and the slow point of the corner is far from the apex, much earlier in, or even before, the corner to keep the car stable.
    lionbest and Piret2000 like this.
  12. Absolutely correct it isn’t as simple as I made out but this simplistic description gets the idea across so that you can then tune it to the car and the setup.
    SimGuy_1 likes this.
  13. SimGuy_1

    SimGuy_1 Simracer

    Nice explanation though i couldn't have said it better.
  14. Piret2000

    Piret2000 Racer

    That's the best explanation I've seen, thanks!
  15. Piret2000

    Piret2000 Racer

    Okay noted
  16. Captain Barracuda

    Captain Barracuda Hardcore Simmer

    Yes as mentioned this corner doesn't really lend itself to trail braking. A quick dab before turn in and then a small amount of throttle during turn in works in the case.
  17. Dobermann92

    Dobermann92 Gamer

    You braked too late for that corner and you want to turn in with too much speed. You are also release the brake pedal a bit too fast. Trailbraking should be kept at a minimum.
    Piret2000 likes this.
  18. Jetsun

    Jetsun Rookie

    You might enjoy this advice as much as I did, good to improve all kind of breaking:
    here it is
  19. n1lyn

    n1lyn Gamer

    To add another point: This is a high speed corner, it relies on downforce. The way you enter the corner your diffusor simply isnt working to keep the car stable as your aero shifts forward a lot with the car pitching forward. As others said before the correct way to cope with this is earlier adjustment of speed and then getting the car back in its normal rake angle by keeping the speed or accelerating. If you lift in eau rouge with this car you're most likely dead. Aris was serious about aerodynamics in ACC and he never gets tired mentioning it.

    Also the 720s is very special on the brakes compared to other cars. Most cars can turn while being fully on the brake, at least a little. But the mclaren just goes straight unless you ease out of the break at least a tiny bit.
    Piret2000 likes this.

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