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Indicators I'm driving the limit

Discussion in 'ACC General Discussions' started by ijac, Oct 20, 2018.

  1. ijac

    ijac Gamer

    I'm still fairly new to sim racing. From what I've read and seen great drivers know how to keep the car on the limit (or just over) without going too much over.

    What indicators do we have in sim racing that helps us know we are driving on the limit? Or have gone just over the limit?

    Does squealing tires mean I've gone over the limit? When I feel understeer in the FFB does that mean I'm over the limit? What else tells me I've gone over the limit?

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  3. Nao

    Nao Alien

    Pretty much yeah, tyres start squealing a little before limit, FFB force should be reducing slightly when approaching limit (and more when going over it) but in ACC personally i can't feel that much with G27, maybe it's clear with a DD wheel idk.

    Besides that you should relay on yaw of the car. If at given moment car is understeery and more steering does not increase car's yaw speed you are at the limit, if car is oversteery, going over the limit will suddenly increase yaw speed. This is bread and butter of simracing (and to lesser extent real racing), and one of the reasons why low FoV is faster, as the yaw clues are easier to read.


    But there is one more way, something i wanted to have a discussion on for some time, and that is HUD indicators of tyre limits.

    Backing as far as Live for Speed times, i used graphical indicators that showed exactly how close you are to the limit for each wheel. In AC we had a couple apps for that and i ended up driving with one all the time.
    This does sound like a cheat at first, as real drivers can't know exactly how much grip the tyres are producing and how close they are to limit, but they do have the g-forces and other spatial senses we can't have in sim. And while the two do not overlap, i feel like their result's (giving a feeling of the car) does.
    Moving from AC to ACC, i lost this graphical slip/grip aid, and it only took me longer to get the feel of the car, while overall speed ended up being the same. Because of that i'd really recommend using visual grip aids to anybody, especially slower drivers, as it just speeds up getting the feeling of the car by a lot. And since you can't drive just off the slip information, the end result is the same: the main clue to what car is doing being car's yaw speed and FFB. You just train yourself faster with it.

    I think widespread usage of such aid would also improve MP. The faster we have people in control of their cars, the less "crashers" we'll see. But what do you think? Have you tried it in any game? Is it a cheat or a timesaver? Or maybe such info did nothing for you?

    ps: For ACC I'm creating a custom SIMHUB app for that atm, if anybody wants to see how it works shoot me a pm.
  4. Ace Pumpkin

    Ace Pumpkin Alien

    Can you name one tire grip app, pls. Would like to try for myself.
  5. henkjansmits

    henkjansmits Simracer

  6. Nao

    Nao Alien

    @Ace Pumpkin Easiest one would be to use built-in dev app for AC : "suspensions" Otherwise i use heavily modified version of Rivali OV1 Info (original slip bars are pretty small). AFAIK Race essentials use the tyre grip limit info in the coloring of tyre wear info, idk if it's possible to make it more visible. There might be better apps for that, but honestly while it's pretty "clunky", the original dev app option is the most clear to read.

    If i have some time today to get my simhub app to a sharable state i'll post it here, it works for both AC and ACC.
    Ace Pumpkin likes this.
  7. Schnipp

    Schnipp Alien

    I think this does also indicate tyre slip:
    (not sure though, never used it)

    But coming back to the indicators:
    Well, from my time driving/racing in simulators the most important thing is time to develop your own experience.
    The key points to pay attention to were already mentioned, so from now on you need to learn how to read and react to them.

    But what helped me a lot to get faster was getting into online racing.
    Before that I did some AI racing or just doing laps on my own. Sure, to some extend you try to go faster and beyond the point you can handle, but at least I never really did that too much.
    I tried a couple of online races, but during the early days of AC it was often a nightmare with wreckers on the track and if you got a server without them there still could have been accidents which meant it was unlikely that you have opponents near you to fight against.

    After a long time I read about a server racing street cars here on the forum and decided to try it, and I loved it. During that time I learned a lot about trying different lines, pushing myself to brake later, take turns a bit faster, get clean exits and of course to fight for positions (and learn when you shouldn't).
    During this time I made the biggest progress on improving both my skills in handling/controlling a car if you're going over the limit* and got a lot quicker overall.

    *ofcourse you won't catch everything, but I learned to push to the limit, judge the limit better and have a sense + reflexes if you pushed too far

    So, it might not be what you would like to hear, but it will take time to improve and also to push yourself out of your 'comfort zone'.
    Yes, it can be frustrating to keep spinning or otherwise losing the car, but don't get disencouraged by going off a couple of times. Try to learn what happened, what you could do differently and also try racing others as you can learn from them too.
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2018
    chksix, mms and Nao like this.
  8. Tberg

    Tberg Alien

    It's just me, but I think it's the wrong way to go, using either tyre squealing or any app at all, to know what the limit is. And I'm in totally opposit opinion of that of Nao, that an app showing griplevels would improve MP or skills faster.
    The way to go is applying real driving techniques and how to get around a track faster, while getting to understand how the car physics work. I see A LOT of intermediate drivers that still can't put 10 laps consistently together, doesn't use the whole trackwidth, has bad pedal technique, unsmooth steering, the list goes on and on. Sure, they may be aggresive enough to put a decent qualy lap together, but it's pure luck and they fall apart on the first lap of the race.
    You can't use griplevel for anything, if you're taking the wrong line, at the wrong speeds. This takes practice and a mindset that wants to improve, it'll be wast of time having grip indication until the lap is actually "perfect".
    Freddie Seng and Schnipp like this.
  9. fabT

    fabT Alien

    I agree.

    Practice carefully and increase pace after getting some consistency.
    First you learn the track, then you learn the car, finally you work on pace.
    Pace leads to finding / understanding limits.

    "Limit" itself is often a misunderstandment.
    There's your driving limit and there's car physical limit.
    Car physical limit means nothing if you drive it bad ... that's the reason we have aliens.

    The point is making both limits work together and this needs practice and patience.
    And practice :D

    No shortcut here, imho.

    EDIT: Nao uses apps to "fine tune" his driving, but that's another matter and legit. For the same reason pro-drivers use telemetry IRL. It has nothing to do with learning how to drive.
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2018
    Freddie Seng, Nao and Schnipp like this.
  10. fabT

    fabT Alien

    Very true.

    Multiplayer teaches how to achieve consistency despite some degree of improvisation, which is an important lesson.

    Moreover it teaches dealing with risk taking: in solo / AI driving there's no actual "risk" in driving carelessly ( except for messing your lap / race / session ), so there's almost no punishment for overdriving.
    In MP overdriving and being careless means putting other's race at risk, so your driving style should necessarily improve and be more mature.
    deadmeat2k and Schnipp like this.
  11. Schnipp

    Schnipp Alien

    Good point Fabrizio.

    I should add that I was decently consistent and could handle the car I drove as I started racing on the server I mentioned earlier.

    If you have friends (or ask ppl. if they are willing to help you) who also simrace and have more experience than you, then going on an empty server might be something you could try. Let your mate lead and you follow, best done if you both use the same car. Try keeping up the car ahead and if it's a (more) experienced driver, watch his lines. I've learned a lot from other guys on trying different lines.
    (but keep in mind that AC has the same grip on the entire track, there is no rubbered or dirty lines simulated, so in simulations with rubbered and dirty lines you should learn to follow the rubbered (=racing) line; just vary your line and approch to and through a turn within the width of the rubbered line)
    Nao and fabT like this.
  12. Nao

    Nao Alien

    I do agree that we should apply real driving techniques and that we have proper mindset for practice, but I don't think my idea excludes that. Rather, it can enhance it by reducing the time taken on familiarizing with new car or track (or game even).

    This slip information (griplevel) isn't good for being aggresive or for better laptimes, but it's great for troubleshooting.
    I could give examples where it would help but it boils down to two things: 1) Being able to see something is wrong, and where it is going wrong (what axle) right from the start by the slip bar going red, makes it much easier for the brain to identify clues in other senses, be it visual, sound, ffb, or just adding the experience to memory (something that real drivers have for granted, as there is more connection between them and the car). Which can then be used on the next lap, instead of repeating the same mistake many more times as it usually happens.

    And two, providing a feedback for inputs. In simulators a newbie can't really know if what he's doing is hard or smooth, he only sees results when hitting the limit. By providing him with intermediate feedback on how the car reacts to inputs he can actually both stay on track and learn the limits. Something again real drivers have for granted.

    I'm not saying it will fix a bad line, or bad attitude, but that it reduces time taken on getting familiar with the car/track - leaving more time for actual practice (the type of practice that real drivers do).

    Anyways, for anybody wanting to try, @czentnerimi (idk why, but cannot reply to your pm), @Ace Pumpkin here is my app for simhub (obnoxious on purpose, it's a wip. Sorry haha) just delete the ".txt"

    Attached Files:

    Ace Pumpkin likes this.
  13. Tberg

    Tberg Alien

    Well, to meet you halfway, I think maybe it could be a tool for the more serious drivers, e-sport teams and such and the same segment that uses motec and analyze their laps. I don't think it'll help the rookie/intermediate in simracing much, it's the wrong place to focus practice time. They'd be looking at this "app" all the time and end up interpreting the results wrong, while missing all the cues the visuals and FFB are giving. And what happens when you take the app away from them?

    To me, such an app is much like the Camber extravaganza, it's able to give an idea of what goes on visually, nothing more. It's likely also able to confuse some and send them in the wrong direction when practicing.

    Edit: I don't mean to sound disencouraging, by all means make the app if that's your goal. I would just advise against advertising it as a tool for everyone to "improve" or be "better at mp" etc.
    Simply just tell what it does and where it gets the data from.
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2018
    Nao and Jebus like this.
  14. Epistolarius

    Epistolarius Alien

    Well in ACC the online rating also applies to singleplayer races so there is some risk to driving recklessly against AI because it does affect your safety rating the same way.
    Jebus likes this.
  15. Minolin

    Minolin Staff Member KS Dev Team

    As you probably noticed, this is one of the big secrets in racing and simracing - and probably the best question you can ask.

    Tyre sound: Yes, sims even use exaggerated tyre squeal to compensate physical feedback. In ACC, you will have a good level when you start to hear the tyres, and you are over the top when the sounds get prominent.

    FFB: In the FFB, you don't really feel understeer, at least it's not as easy. In Ac1 there was an option called "enhanced understeer effect", which made the wheel go very light, just like a street car on snow. But this isn't something in the physics. I'm just telling because you will face drivers who used that effect without really knowing, and now telling there is something wrong.
    What you feel is a) vibrations when you really overdrive, and b) a very different behaviour of the car. b) requires a lot of practice, and of course makes it necessary that you know how this precise car should feel in the given conditions (setup, wetness, tyre compound).

    Rythm: Also requires practice in a non-overdriving way. You start braking at your reference point, turn in at the entry reference, and you make the corner. This is done over and over again, so you build some kind of expectation how the corner goes.
    If you're now braking later and later, you will easily be able to tell when the cornering abilities are getting worse. Same for worsening conditions of the track or tyres.
    Yes, this is a total no-brainer, it just tells to start slowly and build up speed - then you will find the limit without any problem. But I have to tell this because almost everybody is doing it wrong; any time I look into our Rating data there is the pattern of drivers being constantly above the limit.

    And last but not least: There is a distinct Rating in ACC, only about the question of finding the limit (I'm actually surprised nobody noted): Car Control (CC).
    The visual feedback it provides is close to the apps that are discussed here. So if you want to calibrate your sound reception, rythm and feeling of the car: Go to the main menu options -> HUD -> Practice Rating Focus and set it to CC; then you have this feedback while you are in Practice sessions. Feedback is easy: Blue = below, Green = on the limit, yellow/orange = over the limit. Try to minimize overdriving first, then look where you don't use the grip the car has (usually transitions into braking and turn-in).
    Sadly the current release has the issue that this doesn't work from the Pause menu options, and you may even see the RC rating again when opening the menu (is fixed for the next update).

    More about the CC rating here:
    chksix, baboon, Whitestar and 4 others like this.
  16. ijac

    ijac Gamer

    Great info everyone! And thanks for staying civil in our differences of opinion :)

    @Nao I tried Nao's Car Feel Simhub app. It was very helpful seeing exactly when the tires were breaking grip. I could see immediately that I was pushing too hard in certain turns. I changed my approach and feel like I'm driving more smoothly now. My lap times haven't improved yet (they haven't slowed down either) and I feel I am in more control of the car. It helped me connect the tire sounds and the FFB feeling with the tire grip levels too. Hearing and feeling it wasn't enough for me. I needed to see it too. It suddenly all made sense. I don't see myself using this all the time. I'll turn it off once I'm more comfortable but it definitely helped me understand where the tire limits are.

    @Minolin I look forward to the Car Control rating app working properly in future builds. I love the idea of focusing on one of the ratings and working on getting better. I love that this game is teaching how to be a better driver through the rating system. I used the "Enhanced Understeer Effect" in AC1 when I first started sim racing. Turned it off eventually. I can feel that same effect in ACC FFB but not as strong. Very helpful.

    When I feel the understeer effect in FFB I see two options: 1) slow down because I'm entering the turn too fast or 2) tune the setup to remove understeer. And if I enter the turn way too fast no amount of tuning will fix the understeer. Is that correct? Any other options?
  17. Minolin

    Minolin Staff Member KS Dev Team

    Yes, if you enter too fast, you can only try to save the corner, but it's already too late to get through in a good way and possibly hit the apex (and more important have a good exit).
    The concept of understeer is also not that you can give your car more or less grip by setup. Actually there are 2 different definition of understeer, mixed up in a confusing way. One is the balance, so if the car is perfectly on the limit, or even starting to slide - will the rear or the front lose grip first? The latter would be understeer. This is what you do with setups (and it's even possible to have a car doing different things in different corner phases, like braking - entry - turning - acceleration).

    But to see this happening, you must not overshoot corners. Anything else will probably end up in the 2nd class of understeer - because you desperately try to make the corner despite being to fast, ending up in either turning too much, or just turning enough but don't see the car rotating as much as expected. I'd say this is what happens in most of the cases when somebody is talking about "understeer", but it's actually just bad driving, and setups won't help despite some placebo effects ;)
    Cote Dazur and chksix like this.
  18. Nao

    Nao Alien

    Agree with Minolin on this, using setup to cure understeer only works when the entry speed is correct. In fact having more oversteery car might be a detriment here, as sometimes you would enter the corner too fast and oversteery balance would help you "clear" it through sick looking slide that would feel fast (placebo Minolin mentions) but actually be abysmal because of really low exit speed.

    In AC there were cars that really needed more front grip and setup would be of help (street mostly), but for ACC all the cars will have basic tune close enough to optimal, so that if you feel understeer it means you are over driving it. Also remember that if your speed is right you can always cure understeer with footwork, so when you feel that your entry speeds are getting better and car still understeers start giving more attention to pedals.
  19. Rehooja

    Rehooja Simracer

    I have a friend occasionally coming to visit me and play some AC and ACC. The biggest mistakes he makes is that he does not release the brake smoothly and tries to oversteer (causing understeer, too much steering input) into the turn while still braking too hard. So if you ever want to be able to feel the car on the limit in a turn you must first learn to drive it smooth enough. Meaning that you have to brake hard initially and when your at the turn-in point you then slowly release he brake as you start increasing the wheel angle (trail braking). The car acts VERY differently when trail braking vs. coasting. And it is easier to find the limit with trailbraking then it is with coasting.

    Best way to learn this relation is to watch some good driving videos where the player has the hud on and keep a close eye how he uses steering input, brake and throttle in relation to each other. Then try to mimic that smooth transition. You can't find the limit if you can't do weight shifting smoothly enough since the car will just snap into understeer and you go out the turn off-track or then you will have rapid oversteer and likely spin out if you can't catch it.

    Please note that trailbraking, shifting gears, turning, hitting apex and doing all that together is REALLY HARD and takes a lot of skill in hand-foot-eye coordination. It will take a long time to learn this so be patient. Also try watching replays of your own driving every 10L or so and try to understand and see what you did wrong and why the car behaved like it did in that situation.

    Analyzing someone else drive and seeing the mistakes he does and the impacts that has on the car behavior is one of the best ways to learn about car weight shifting. Even more better is if you can see these things in your own driving. But remember that it can be often very hard to stay objective when it comes to evaluating ones own performance. This is why telemetry and team work is so valuable. Also another driver does some things often differently which in hand gives a very valuable perspective to your own driving.
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2018
  20. Minolin

    Minolin Staff Member KS Dev Team

    Don't wanna say this is wrong, but we should also point out that this is one of the biggest differences to AC1: In ACC (maybe even only with @Aristotelis current setups), the cars really like to coast into the corners, which also results in quite realistic inputs.
    So at least on my level (which is below most guys commenting here), it turned out to be a good strategy to smoothly release the brakes, let the car bite into the corner and smoothly start to accelerate post the transition point (~=apex for most corners).

    Could be different for more aggressive setups though, tbh. I'm only using the safe ones (they are so good, even though they are harder to use properly)
    deadmeat2k, Nesja and Rehooja like this.
  21. Rehooja

    Rehooja Simracer

    Yeah, I sometimes like how grippy the coasting can be. But generally you are almost always losing time when you are coasting so you want to minimize the time on it and rather be on the brake or throttle (even if it is just bare minimum). Idea is that race car should be accelerating or braking. Well.. you could actually say coasting is also kind of braking but it's very inefficient at it.

    Don't take me wrong though. There are some turns that coasting is inevitable but still you want to minimize this.
    deadmeat2k and Ace Pumpkin like this.

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