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Is anyone else faster with the gt2 cars rather than the gt3 ones?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat Room' started by EMi, Dec 15, 2014.

  1. EMi

    EMi Rookie

    Is it supposed to be this way? It's kind of weird, but I get more grip through corners with the m3 GT2 than the z4 GT3. Straight line speed is about the same. And I've tried it with default and custom setups, and the GT2 is just so much faster.

    I go through Eau Rouge at around 233 kph with the m3 GT2 (flat out). I can match that speed with the z4 gt3 or the 12c gt3. However, if tyres are worn out, or for some reason I get oversteer or I hit the curves, it's so much easier to correct it with the m3. The car just feels fantastic, it's so balanced. But, with the z4 and the 12c, they start sliding like they are aquaplaning. They feel heavy, so it's a lot of weight being thrown around.

    Today I was trying to see what's the fastest speed I can go through pouhon. At nearly 200kph, with the m3, the back starts to turn, and it's just so managable to know how much you must turn the wheel to not loose the racing line or time. It's a disaster to do that with the 12c gt3, I just don't have the grip.

    Does anyone else feels this way? Shouldn't the gt3 cars be faster? My fastest lap time with the m3 gt2 in spa is 2.17.4. With the 12c gt3 it's low 2.20. Both using custom setups I found somewhere on the internet (I have a lot of them, and I tried them all and it's the best I can do with them. Maybe I can get to 2.19 with the 12c if I try really hard but that's it).

    EDIT: I'm an idiot. It's supposed to be this way. This is a great article explaining different classes: http://jalopnik.com/5949938/understanding-gt-sports-car-racing-a-class-by-class-guide
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2014
    Old Geezer and F430_458_F12 like this.

  2. Ozcanuck55

    Ozcanuck55 Racer

    GT3 is a lower class...GT1 is tops.
    EMi and marlo0081 like this.
  3. EMi

    EMi Rookie

    How's that possible? How is an m3 supposed to be faster than a 12c or an SLS?
    F430_458_F12 likes this.
  4. jamba

    jamba Racer

    You ever heard of google?

    hint : turbocharger
  5. SeriousSpy

    SeriousSpy Racer

    Because they're racing cars?

    All GT3s (with the exception of the Z4, I think) are downpowered from their supercar counterparts.
    EMi likes this.
  6. Bailey

    Bailey Alien

    Yep. It is supposed to be this way. The only thing that relates a BMW Z4 to the Z4 GT3 is the name and maybe the shape of the chassis (at least that's how I feel). Same with the M3, SLS, etc. The rules of the GT series basically say that the GT cars must be a special version of a current production car.

    Another interest thing is that some GT3 cars have more horsepower than their GT2 counterparts, but due to regulations are slower. If I remember correctly this is the case for the Ferrari F430 GT cars, where the GT2 variant was 8 seconds faster around Spa than the GT3 version, yet the GT3 had more horsepower.

    Just wait till the GTE and the GTD spec cars come out for Assetto Corsa. I don't know if you will be able to handle it! :p
    EMi likes this.
  7. SeriousSpy

    SeriousSpy Racer

    By the way, GTE, GT2 and GTLM are all the same thing.
    EMi likes this.
  8. EMi

    EMi Rookie

    Thanks everyone for the responses! I'm an idiot apparently, I just thought higher number meant faster car :)

    It's fascinating how different cars are depending on their editions. They shouldn't even be called the same way as they are very very different.
  9. jamba

    jamba Racer

    458 is 458 no metter what you changed on that car...same goes for everything (not just car)
  10. SeriousSpy

    SeriousSpy Racer

    I'm going to ignore that before I go ballistic and murder someone.
  11. EMi

    EMi Rookie

    I just thought that based on what Bailey said a few comments above: "The only thing that relates a BMW Z4 to the Z4 GT3 is the name and maybe the shape of the chassis (at least that's how I feel). Same with the M3, SLS, etc. The rules of the GT series basically say that the GT cars must be a special version of a current production car."

    Maybe this is obvious for some of you, but I don't know much about cars. I always had the idea that an M3 was a fast saloon, and the 458, 12C, SLS were full supercars. It just seems crazy to me that I can be faster in an M3 than a 12C. But as I said, I'm an idiot, I know very little about this stuff :) (as you can probably tell u.u )
  12. Bailey

    Bailey Alien

    I am on the same boat as you EMi when it comes to the whole F1 vs F2 vs F3 vs F2000 vs Fwhatever ordeal. Same can go for the GT stuff. It's all relative I guess.
    Old Geezer and EMi like this.
  13. Ozcanuck55

    Ozcanuck55 Racer

    In a nutshell, the higher the number, the more it resembles the performance of the production version.

    For example, the GT3 class race cars have a simpler form of aerodynamics- ie. front splitters, rear wings, air-dams etc- then the GT2 class racecars. It also means that the car body/chassis cannot be (highly) modified from its original form. This result in lower downforce in the GT3 class although both classes have pretty much the same power output/weight.

    And in the highest class, GT1, the bodywork retains very little of the original production model. What you end up with is a car with a very sophisticated aerodynamic and a lot of downforce.

    There are also regulations regarding brakes (only GT1 class is allowed carbon brakes) and even drivers and teams- GT3 and GT4, for example, is more geared towards novice/gentlemen drivers and privateer teams while GT2 and GT1 are for seasoned professionals and works teams.

    Of course, these barely touch the surface. The regulations are more complex and encompassing and for that you need to go FIA website.
  14. F430_458_F12

    F430_458_F12 Alien

    Incorrect, and rudeness to a fellow member isn't policy of the forum. Everyone knows Google. People ask here not because they are generally lazy but because they know this is a sim racing hub, members know more data than a general search of the Internet usually provides. Plus, if you ask things here, you are likely to get a better answer to your question as people will INTERACT with you and perhaps get you asking the right questions you didn't even know you should ask.

    Being rude, or sarcastic without proper indication does not encourage car related questions on this forum, and it discourages new members reading from asking their questions. How does that get the word out that sim racing is the best way to game? It turns this place into a bunch of self-obsessed pricks who care more about being able to sling a retort at someone else.
  15. Tony Rickard

    Tony Rickard Racer

    Don't worry, we all have our moments! Not wishing to make you kick yourself even harder but just think about F1, GP2, F3 and the order of class ;)
  16. DAwwie

    DAwwie Gamer

    Look up the concept of "silhouette racing". The cars look like their real-world counterparts so consumers are more likely to buy the car. In mechanical terms the cars can be very different.

    For example, in NASCAR the cars have stickers as headlights, just so that people can support their favourite car brand or driver by buying the "road-going" version of the car on the track, even though they probably share a very small (if any) amount of the actual parts used in the car.
    Old Geezer and EMi like this.
  17. er540

    er540 Racer

    EMi and F430_458_F12 like this.
  18. plaid

    plaid Alien

    Its basicly cause two organisations feel the need to cook their own soup. They drive quite differently, still I hope one day another more powerfull GT-class will come instead of the 2 similiar ones.

    If I drive a P1, LaFerrari or a Hyuara and the then a GT3 /2 (or the Zonda R) I just always think how awesome it would be, to have racecars and a class that combines the strenghts of the two (Hypercar-power,gimmiks & GT-car aero,brakes,tyres,weight) or at least the possibility to incrase the PS of AC'S GT-cars. Oh the possibilites... :(

    There are still the LMP's and Formula-cars, still they don'T have that...appeal.
    F430_458_F12 likes this.
  19. F430_458_F12

    F430_458_F12 Alien

    The reason lies in the rules the FIA writes for the GT racing class. From what I know, manufacturers enter their cars into a series to develop performance aspects of their company. Before entering, they have to prove to the FIA that the car in question is a production model that has sold/can sell/will sell thousands of models. The race cars must feature original chassis, bodywork, and dash boards, but can be modified for safety and performance in the race. Old regulations had cars retaining round steering wheels and other more road-like auto parts, but the rules have relaxed, allowing cars like the SLS GT3 to use non-standardized wheels.

    The title, GT3 relates the class of car and subclass. naturally, the smaller the number in any racing series, the more performance ideal the car is. Hence, F1 is better than GP2, GT1 (now defunct) is better than GT3 and so forth.

    The M3 is not faster than the 12C as a road car. This is the interesting aspect of GT racing: the cars as base models do not need to be similar in performance. However, as a race spec machine, they have to be homologated in order to be competitive. So, the performance upgrades on the M3 are much higher relative to the base car used as say the Ferrari 458, an already powerful car that actually has performance drops from the FIA regulations to keep it from emerging with an advantage. For example, the 458 GT2 has rev limitations, because Ferrari builds an engine so advanced and strong that it would give the car a performance edge according to the FIA. The GT3 version, higher revving, has ballast in order to keep it from out accelerating other cars...which it still manages to do (watch any of the recent SPA 24H races). The SLS GT3, a heavier base car, receives less restriction in order to make it competitive.

    Also, teams can choose to take different paths in the rule book for performance. For years, the Z4 GT3 has been one of the lightest cars out there, but it lacks top speed and general acceleration in certain turns. BMW chose to maximize the car's downforce, sacrificing speed for cornering stability and reliability. The Z4 has extra aero parts all over the place, many more air directing channels, a livelier rear to help turn rotation of the car, and a torquier engine for power out of the turns. The Aston Martin GT3, however, is a heavy block in corners, esp. hairpins from what I understand. But it has grunt into the turn, much more stable, and has incredible top speed like the Ferrari.

    The big question in all of this is...why is there GT racing at all? It seems weird (and sometimes still does for me) that imbalanced road cars attempt to become performance balanced in racing (yes, I personified cars!). The thing is, there are groups who don't want to see the auto industry turn strictly to prototype cars for racing. These performance-driven autos have largely become technology races, and many feel the competition is lower than in other kinds of cars. From F1 in the 80s and 90s, to Group C in the 70s, to Le Mans prototypes in the 2000s, the technology race has shifted between these and more brands than I'd care to mention. And the question is: does man need technology in order to race? Many say no, and it is this answer that keeps fans supporting commercial-cars-turned-race-cars like WTCC, Rally, GT racing, etc.

    Plus, many people feel prototype racing is a very distant world from the fans who support it. Whereas in GT racing, many might very well own the base car of their favorite team's race version, no one will own anything close to an Audi R18 TDi, or a Ferrari F14T. This capability of the consumer owning a part of the racing car is a very powerful marketing tool, as it creates an enormous incentive to become a fan of the GT series and support the teams through donations, purchase of merchandise, attendance of races, etc. The drivers, too, are primarily amateurs (this is fast changing as prototype drivers join the GT crew), a thing the fans love, since they are approachable and do not require the kind of security that a Lewis or Vettel does.

    For example, I have become very interested in Turner Motorsport during my ownership of BMWs and BMW merchandise. I own the base model of one of their past racing cars, and it is rewarding as a fan to know I drive a car which they turned into a performance tool. No fan of F1 can say that unless they own an Ariel Atom or one of the kit open-wheel cars on the market. And who owns those? Not many. But there are many more people who own Corvettes, M3s, etc.

    Regarding GT classes, the FIA ranking system is complicated at best, a nightmare at worst. It amazes me that there are any races at all with the crazy rule system they have. One thing that hasn't changed in a while is the fact that GT3 is always on the bottom. While its rules have changed substantially over the years, GT3 cars have always been slower than the other higher classes, partly because the manufacturers within the class allow amateurs to buy ready-made race models. For instance, if I had $350,000, I could afford a nicely appointed McLaren GT3. Or for a little more, an Aston Martin Gt3 and so on. No one can buy a GT2 or GT1 car, as these autos are intended for racing professionals only and feature less driving aides, more technology, and are generally harder to drive at speed than GT3 cars.

    One of the confusing things about the GT classes is the FIA's need to change the names all the time. GT1 was short lived and went the way of the dodo (which still ticks me off), and was replaced by GT2, a struggling class in 2010 where the cars raced prominently in Le Mans and SPA. Later, GT1 was resurrected with bastardized GT3 cars called GT1. Then that died. Then GT2 died, but was resurrected with the dawn of the WEC, where the FIA renamed the class GTLM or GTE for the purposes of distinguishing it from the shorter GT3 races that drew amateur drivers.

    Then things got even weirder! GT3 races became longer as the VLN developed into its own series, GT3 bumped GT2 from SPA, and Bathurst and Dubai became exclusive stomping grounds for GT3 class. Plus, there are amateur drivers now who drive GT2 cars, as per the AM class in WEC, and in certain small series where such drivers as Martin Lanting race exclusively for Ferrari. Strangely, though the class names, race lengths, and drive skills change, the cars' performance doesn't change much, as GTLM cars have less HP, but significantly more technology and aero capabilities. In fact, the FIA has taken note that GTLM cars are getting so fast that they are pushing old GT1 times at certain circuits like Le Mans, where such drivers as the late Allan Simonsen broke the 4:00 mark in his Ferrari.

    I hope this answers some of the questions floating out there :)

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