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League Proposal

Discussion in 'Chit Chat Room' started by Joe Kelley, Dec 30, 2016.

  1. Joe Kelley

    Joe Kelley Racer

    Home from work (I'm semi-retired but right now there is work that must be done or I don't eat) and I can do laps or write. I think it is important to fill this hole in this World Wide Web where more than a few people (out of 7.4 Billion) have a competitive interest in simulating Formula 1 Racing in the 1960s time frame.

    Assetto Corsa is filling that hole, and I'd like to help.

    I think that Sim Dream Development is also competing to add substance to that observable vacancy.

    The Lotus 25 could still be used to place new drivers into the mix with a demand for them to stay one the track, lap after lap, at least during one race, and then earn whichever car they want, assuming that earning fast cars, or not, has not yet been implemented other than qualifying new drivers.

    I am also very troubled by those who lack the capacity to identify, and deal with, drivers who willfully cause accidents, time and time again, for whatever reason, and the reasons do not matter as much as the matter of fact that accidents are caused time and time again, as if nothing could be done to move in the direction of fewer, and fewer, accidents caused by fewer, and fewer drivers, reaching for, and gaining competitive racing as if lives were on the line.

    I did not save (bookmark) my Sandown file source unfortunately. I have it, I tested it, and it is a good track. Until I find it again I think it might be a good idea to concentrate on identifying another track for our use in our first race. Longford is not a perfect track by any means, but in my opinion it is useful as a track that is in Australia, and it was used in real life, and therefore it can be used for simulation.

    My time in the SD (Sim Dream Development) Ferrari 312 1967 for Longford is now 2:17.700 with full fuel. I can probably improve by a few seconds sooner or later.

    Is that date Sun 26 Mar 2017 worthy of consideration, and is the track Sundown worthy of using for that points earning race on that date, and are SD cars OK for League Championship purposes?
     
  2. Cote Dazur

    Cote Dazur Alien

    @Joe Kelley what time do you have in mind?
    As for the track and cars, I do not have either and I suspect many are in the same situation, so it needs to be addressed.
    Do you have the capacity to run a server?
    It could be practical to have one running on a regular basis to have impromptu races among ourself and raise interest.
    I have the capacity to run a server.
     
  3. Joe Kelley

    Joe Kelley Racer

    Time for 2 people, one in Switzerland and one in California (a canton?), possibly is:

    "Saturday 5 PM is a great time for me"

    http://www.timebie.com/timezone/californiaswitzerland.php

    5:00 PM Switzerland now is 11:00 AM California.

    "I can do afternoon racing on weekends..."

    I don't know about March, and the first race, I can say that typically my weekends are open all day, and as typically something comes up and my weekends are no longer open all day.

    Mornings - up to afternoons, are times when things happen, where those happening things tend to upset the typical day.

    All that leads to a problem seeking a solution. Currently the problem is unique to 2 people, not 3 people, and not anything close to 7.3 Billion people.

    What solutions have worked toward resolving the Championship Points Race Season for Formula 1 Simulation, with Classic Cars (60s era) problem?

    I think one of the solutions (not necessarily 60s era) is to have many races, with fewer than many points earning finishes.

    Example:

    10 races with 8 of the best finishes employed in determining the Championship points finish order.

    I can do, for now, 11:00 AM California, Saturday starting next week, as far as I know so far.

    Reported here: http://www.speedtest.net/

    For me right now is this: 99.90 Mbps Download, and 11.94 Mbps Upload, it is 7:23 PM Pacific (US) PST Pacific Standard Time.

    http://24timezones.com/world_directory/current_los_angeles_time.php

    "No daylight saving time at the moment"

    So...the ball goes back in your court?

    I have done nothing to inform myself as to the requirements needed in running an Assetto Corsa Server. Ignorance is not bliss.

    Off topic: Dinner, which I am cooking while wife moves Real Estate Paper work around at late hours, is Pork Chops, Kraft Macaroni and Cheese, with mushroom/onions/garlic sauté.

    After Australia, if the idea is to mirror the actual F1 season, with a 60s fantasy flavor, is Chinese GP, Bahrain GP, Russian GP, then Spanish GP.

    That is 4 Race Days with no track, so we can choose anything for the first race, including any non-formula 1 track, such as, for example, the Thomson track.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
  4. rge75

    rge75 Simracer

    I can also do races later (Saturday evening), but I of course also don't know my schedule in March already. I just don't want to race Sunday midnight or something like this if I have to go to work the next day. Thomson track would be ok for me - I didn't practice it yet though which might result in poor performance/more mistakes.

    Well, the good thing about your point system example - somebody may miss a race and it wouldn't matter. The disadvantage - people don't feel to have to finish a race if they're not good in it because it anyway might be one of the two that won't count. I'd probably even give an extra point to everybody who actually finished the race. Maybe the point system should also be in relation to the number of participations. If you have 20 persons, then a "only the first 6 get points" might be a bit hard, especially if you may have 5 or 6 alien in the field. This way, it wouldn't be interesting for the backmarkers. But I think it's too early to discuss too many details if there aren't enough people interested into it.

    Trying out your server might be a good idea - just to check out how the pings are. Then again, it's probably a difference if 2-3 or 16 people join.

    I'm not that sure about all those modern tracks though. They're simply made for modern cars. It's like modern F1 cars don't fit the 60s track - it's also vice versa IMO. So completely mirroring the current F1 season might not work IMO. Beside that, I have no clue if those tracks even exist for AC.

    Another critical thing are the cars. In another thread, I once again read that Sim-Dreams use and sell stolen content. These might just be rumours and I've not seen any prove, but those voices are always coming up again. With that said, I'm actually not willing to buy their 1967 mod.
     
  5. Cote Dazur

    Cote Dazur Alien

    I suggest announcing a time in GMT, it makes it easy for every one.
    I can help with the server, but I will need a link to the cars and tracks you want to use to load on the server, as I do not have them.
    I suggest that you gathered at least 16 members to even think about starting a championship, meanwhile we can start enjoy each other company driving vintage F1 on Vintage tracks.
     
    rge75 likes this.
  6. Joe Kelley

    Joe Kelley Racer

    Looks like Switzerland time (not summer time) is now GMT+1

    https://greenwichmeantime.com/time-zone/europe/switzerland/time/

    So a possible practice session on a rge75 server could be Jan 7 6pm GMT. The following week Jan 14 6pm GMT, possibly, Cote Dazur could test his ability to host a race. Until a schedule for a points championship is agreed upon it makes sense to me to leave the track, and the cars available on the track, up to the host hosting the cars and the track during practice sessions.

    A test session this Saturday at 6pm GMT (assuming that is 5pm in Switzerland, and therefore 11am for me in California) can be whichever car and track rge75 will have on his server: advance notice helps. I can park my Ferrari and start practicing with the Lotus 49 again, for practice races with rge75.

    As to the returning charges of criminal activity, with me potentially having received (paid for) stolen property, the concept is foreign to me, but I understand how other people have these concerns. If it is either very expensive, or impossible, to enforce someone's (or some group's) claim of ownership then said claims are either very expensive, or impossible, to enforce. Someone, or some group, can claim to have invented the internet, and therefore owed royalties from everyone using the internet. Open source, freeware, is a developing market reality. Closed source, encrypted, software is also a developing market reality. Who did the people at Sim Dream Development steal from, as far as the claim being made is concerned, and was the theft perpetrated with malice aforethought, again according to the claim made by the victim of the theft? Was there a claim of theft brought to the attention of the people at Sim Dream Development, and what was their answer to that claim? Was there a demand made to Sim Dream Development to pay damages, and if so what were those damages? Is there an authoritative group currently enforcing intellectual property rights worldwide, and if so, how did said group gain that power of enforcement?

    I am finding it very difficult to entertain the idea that I am driving around in a stolen Ferrari. OK, I thought, the freeware Ferrari could have been stolen from Sim Dream Development, so I purchased my Ferrari from Sim Dream Development, the other stolen Ferraris are parked in a folder. They look similar, but they do not drive the same, and they do not sound the same, so they are, in those ways, not the same.

    My understanding of current market realities is such that someone pouring resources into software has a decision to make concerning how those resources are spent: 1. Encrypting, defending, closed source software, an example is CAD software:

    http://www.toptenreviews.com/software/multimedia/best-cad-software/

    My brother is a machinist working at Goldstone/JPL, and the CAD software he uses is very expensive, very competitive, and encrypted. He said that he has to call a phone number and the key is then transferred from the seller to one destination hard-drive. Those software suppliers are very serious about anti-theft investments. Leave the door wide open and who knows what might wander in?

    One of the options available to software developers is to pour resources into improving the software over time, making better software than the software made by the competition, ensuring a requirement for potential buyers that potential buyers understand, as to where, and from who, the best, latest, up-to-date, software is purchased: the expression "cornering the market" comes to mind.

    Enough about that for now. I'll drive my purchased Ferrari until such time as I see a legitimate claim informing me of my obvious error; it is, after all, a (simulated) Ferrari, even if it is not the best one to date.

    Looking forward to a possible event on-line, with real people, in simulated classic (60s) F1 cars.
     
  7. Cote Dazur

    Cote Dazur Alien

    @rge75 looking forward to join you server Saturday, which track and cars are we going to use?
     
  8. Joe Kelley

    Joe Kelley Racer

    How about Monza 66 for the track, and AC Lotus 49 for the first test, both are standard AC software?
     
  9. Cote Dazur

    Cote Dazur Alien

    Not a fan of Monza 66 in either form but yes everyone has it.
     
  10. Joe Kelley

    Joe Kelley Racer

    I think all decisions ought to be unanimous, so as to remove all negatives, and to nurture all positives.

    Whatever works unanimously ought to have the best chance at success.

    It is probably a good idea to have a back up in case the first server does not work, and those who show up are then able to have fun on the back-up server.

    Which track do you want, and which cars do you want, on your back-up server on Jan 7 6pm GMT, and/or on your primary, the place to be, server on Jan 14 6pm GMT. I have yet to find a track I do not like (bugs at tracks are not negatives charged to the track), and so far the cars I have are all positives, good driving experiences.

    Most of the fun is having a real human being on the same track at the same time and there is competition: a reasonable chance to go from start to finish faster for each participant during practice, qualifying, warmup, or race.
     
  11. Joe Kelley

    Joe Kelley Racer

    FYI,

    I sent the following to SDD (Sim Dream Development):

    _________________________________________
    Following up,



    Please respond.



    Joe
    ___________________________________________

    Support does not exist when someone is merely using software, not earning any profits, and the software is shared generously among peers. Peer A says: "This thing is broke." Peer B says: "Here is where I found that item that you think is broke: http:abcdeft123. Fix it yourself."
     
  12. Joe Kelley

    Joe Kelley Racer

    From here: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2016/11/f1-fia-confirms-2017-calendar.html

    From that link is the official F1 Race Calendar, and I've added proposed dates and tracks based so far on limited negotiations among participating drivers: so it is a provisional, proposed, points race calendar. 20 Races.

    March 26 - Australia (Melbourne) <-----------> Longford - History: Australia GP 1965 [Joe SD Ferrari 2:17.700]
    April 9 - China (Shanghai) <--------------------> Sundown - History: Australia GP 1964, 68
    April 16 - Bahrain (Bahrain) <------------------> Isle of Man
    April 30 - Russia (Sochi) <----------------------> Goodwood
    May 14 - Spain (Barcelona) <-------------------> Monza with Oval - History: Italian GP 1960, 61
    May 28 - Monaco (Monte Carlo) <-------------> Monaco -History: Every year
    June 11 - Canada (Montreal) <-----------------> Mosport - History: Canadian GP 1961, 67, 69
    June 25 - Azerbaijan (Baku) <-----------------> Mont Tremblant - History: 1968, 70
    July 9 - Austria (Spielberg) <------------------> Österreichring - History: Austrian GP 1970
    July 16 - Great Britain (Silverstone) <--------> Silverstone - History: British GP 1960, 63, 65, 67, 69 [rge75 1.27][Joe = 1:32.014]
    July 30 - Hungary (Budapest) <---------------> Brands Hatch - History: British GP 1964, 66, 70
    August 27 - Belgium (Spa-Francorchamps) -> Spa - History: Belgian GP 1960, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 70
    September 3 - Italy (Monza) <----------------> Monza without Oval - History, Italian GP 1962, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70 [rge75 = 1:29.629][Joe = 1:31.798]
    September 17 - Singapore (Singapore) <----> Thomson Road
    October 1 - Malaysia (Sepang) <-------------> Zandvoort - History: Dutch GP 1960, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70
    October 8 - Japan (Suzuka) <----------------> Indianapolis - History: US GP 1963, 64, 65, 66, 67
    October 22 - USA (Austin) <-----------------> Riverside - History: US GP 1960
    October 29 - Mexico (Mexico City) <-------> Rouen - History: French GP 1962, 64, 68
    November 12 - Brazil (Sao Paulo) <---------> Bugatti (Le Mans) - French GP History: 1967
    November 26 - Abu Dhabi (Abu Dhabi) <--> Nordschleife - History: German GP 1961, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69

    For now times above are moved from the official F1 race day to the Saturday before the official F1 race. Any track can be cut out of the above list and any track can be put in place of the above list. I've tested every track above except Thomson and Goodwood, and to me each track is useful in simulating classic F1 history.

    The points race can be among any driver earning 1 point in any race all season: 10 points for first place, 9 points for 2nd, on and on, and if more than 11 people finish one race, then some drivers don't get points for finishing lower than the 1 point earning 10th place.

    For season 1 the races can be 5 laps each for long circuits like Nords, or Isle of Man, and 10 laps for shorter circuits, or whatever is agreeable.

    Practice events could be run the same as race events so as to create a routine: Join, free practice for a time (30 minutes), qualification based upon best free practice time, race once. If it is agreeable to those present that the first race was not useful (due to someone disconnecting or emergency phone call, or whatever), then those present can agree to run a second "official" race for points earned in the Championship Season. Abuse of any mutually agreed upon rule would involve someone breaking agreements made unanimously since unanimous agreement can hardly be considered abuse.
     
    Cote Dazur likes this.
  13. rge75

    rge75 Simracer

    I'm slightly surprised everybody is talking about "my" server now because I never said I have one (and I doubt my up/downstream is enough)? Well, I could set up/schedule one at justrace.net - they run fine. The maximum session lenght simply is limited to 60 minutes though. But didn't you wrote you have the capacity to run a server? So we could try your one but I'd simply schedule the justrace.net server as backup solution?

    Furthermore, Joe mentioned that 5 PM Switzerland is 11 AM California? West Coast is 9h difference, not 6 though, so this would be 8 AM. However, it's also ok to race later on Saturday. I'm simply in UTC+1

    Wanting all decisions unamious might be difficult in the end. It may work with 3 or 4 people, but not with a 16 car grid ;-)

    As for the track, it's ok to run Monza to me (it doesn't always have to be my favourite track which would be Silverstone66 for the Lotus). But I'd prefer the normal road course for practice and not the 10k version. Especially with only few people, this track is simply way too long. You'd feel quite lonely if people don't have the same pace.

    Thanks for the schedule proposal. You added some quite difficult tracks to race on IMO for the schedule. I'm not sure if I ever made a clean lap on the IOM and I have no idea how it would be with traffic. It's different with the Nordschleife because I know the track by heart. Looks like I'll have to download some more tracks because I don't have all. Some tracks are updated every now and then so it would be important that all have the same version.
     
    Cote Dazur likes this.
  14. Joe Kelley

    Joe Kelley Racer

    rge75,

    It was my error concerning your ability to run a server, I read the message from Cote Dazur and mistook it for a message from you. I checked into hosting a server myself, and found this link: http://www.assettocorsa.net/forum/index.php?faq/dedicated-server-manual.28/

    This:
    4) If your server is running on remote PC, upload the entire "server" folder. Remember to backup the three files listed in the section below: in this case just check for new settings in the new files and add them to your old ones.

    I suppose that it is possible to host a race on the same computer used by a driver in the race, but I have yet to take those steps.

    It was also my error in reading the Time Zone Converter that converted Switzerland time to California time.

    +8 hours from 4pm GMT converts my time to 8:00am, which is fine by me, for this type of event: practice or racing.

    I just ran my first consistent laps at Monza with the AC Lotus 49, starting with full fuel, and managed a 1:31.413.

    Cote Dazur,

    Can you host this Saturday, Jan 7, at 4:00pm GMT (which is 5pm for rge75 and 8am for me if I have this right this time)?

    If you can host a practice session then it is up to you to choose a track, and the car so far agreed upon is the AC Lotus 49.

    It is early in the process for me to even begin to race with Assetto Corsa. The beginning stages of starting a league, as shown in this effort, are time consuming. I can be ready for some type of Championship Season by March, and I can do so even if I run the events on my own as if running my own career mode.

    For awhile those who are familiar with Assetto Corsa will find me in their rear view mirrors at the start, and then things will probably be lonely for the rest of the race. The idea with a first, then a second, championship season is a method of measuring improvement for each driver, I found this during 3 years of racing in an annual championship using rFactor and modern F1 cars. The first season I was close to last place. The second season I move up, and the last season I managed 2nd place. It was often lonely on the track, but occasionally there was a close race.

    1. Race against self learning the car and the track.
    2. Race against one other driver on the track, the one closest to your ability if there are more than one driver.
    3. Race for better points at each track.
    4. Race for total points on all tracks in one championship
    5. Race against championship finishes each season
     
  15. Cote Dazur

    Cote Dazur Alien

    No problem, Saturday, 4pm GMT, the server name is called Cote Dazur Classic.
    The track will be Silverstone 1967.
    The server is up right now and will be all day, let me know if you intend to join later today, I will be on around 9 PM GMT.
     
  16. Joe Kelley

    Joe Kelley Racer

    I will check the server in a few minutes. It is 9:10pm GMT now.
     
  17. Cote Dazur

    Cote Dazur Alien

    @Joe Kelley and @rge75 very nice session this afternoon, @fatkrakr nice to see you in action as well.
    Looking forward for more of the friendly racing and hoping this old Formula 1 championship will take off.
     
  18. Joe Kelley

    Joe Kelley Racer

    Reporting on the first ever Assetto Corsa Classic Formula 1 2017 Championship Points Series practice session:

    I measure the racing fun by how much sweat pours into my eyes. Cote Dazur was demonstrably faster than I was able to manage and so Cote decided to park his car in my rear view mirror for a number of laps during a number of practice races for 10 laps. There is a huge difference between racing alone and racing with someone parked in the mirror, and I have to give Cote a lot of credit for never running into me despite my missed shifts, too early braking, and occasional unintended weaving across the track.

    One thing I learned in my racing with other people and other software is a keen sense of which drivers can be trusted and which ones are too reckless to trust in a close battle. Cote is, at least in my opinion, trustworthy.
     
    rge75 and Cote Dazur like this.
  19. rge75

    rge75 Simracer

    I agree on the above said. It was once again fun yesterday. Especially when we were 3 drivers within the same pace. Driving with somebody in my mirror is for sure different. Maybe I care "too much" about that guy in the mirror and start thinking things like "don't brake too early or he'll crash into my back" and "leave enough space" - but maybe I should simply drive a more aggressive line ;-) As @Cote Dazur said, the cars are handfull...I once didn't clutch properly and I had no gear while braking, resulting in not having some engine braking. The result was that I ran out of road on the corner ;-) It's for sure nice to see the same people on the server because you start to know which one is "trustworthy" as @Joe Kelley would say. So far, all the joined drivers were fair and clean. That one race accident in the last corner was just "bad luck" and maybe a slight miscalculation from the opponent when I was shot off.

    I also had some close battles with Code Dazur the previous day, but he's getting faster from day to day which makes it hard to stay within his mirror ;-) Racing online anyway forces you to go faster. Once I was catching up to Code Dazur by probably 1 to 2 seconds per lap until I was 2-3 seconds behind him. Suddenly he started to make faster lap and I wasn't really able to catch up anymore.

    The only "downside" to me is the high ping, but it was better yesterday (a yellow 120 instead of a red 150) and it didn't feel laggy at all. But with the european servers I'm having green pings like 20 ;-) Nevertheless, I'll for sure join again.

    As for Saturday, 4PM GMT is ok to me, but we can also do 9PM like the last couple of days. Whatever you prefer. Looking forward for the next battles.
     
  20. Joe Kelley

    Joe Kelley Racer

    My thinking on the Championship Schedule Events, and the best time to hold these events, is the same type of thinking as the unanimous vote thinking. If everyone participating does so (everyone participates) they agree to do so unanimously, some with less or more agreement. An example is the host (the server) participating by having the server up and running at the agreed upon time. This type of thinking includes the idea of having an agreed upon backup server, and an agreed upon method of scoring points when someone does not show up for a race because their schedule for a specific week does not agree with the Championship Schedule Event, and there is not time to change the time of the event to accommodate the one, or the many, whose schedules do not agree with a regular, standardized, official, routine, time.

    Of course, as noted by rge75, agreement is less likely (exponentially) with more participants seeking participation.

    We are 3 in number on this forum. My schedule agrees with a wide range of time. What would be a more agreeable time for more drivers at this point in time, and since the bandwidth is already stressed, what is the most participants that can be allowed into the one and only server we are currently using at this point in time? What is the greatest number of drivers allowable in the championship events when using this server?

    What are some obvious methods of encouraging safer (less reckless) driving and thereby preventing reckless driving from getting out of hand during these events: official scoring events or just for fun practice events?

    I think it is a mistake to call any of these events just for fun, if by those words the idea is to stop, or lessen, the desire to avoid wrecking cars on the track. I try (not always succeeding) to consider my car to actually be a car, as if the idea was to simulate a situation where I have access to an actual expensive, high performance, car. Just for fun sometimes means, to me, go ahead and wreck this car again, and again.

    Is it possible for me to get a copy of the server data so as to keep a record (on this forum, on the first post, where I can edit that first post) best lap times for participating drivers?

    Silverstone GP (67)
    1. rge75:
    2. Cote:
    3. Joe: [1:31.279, full fuel, off-line]
    4.

    I just checked: https://www.rackservice.org/index.php/assetto-corsa

    6:50 Euro per Month

    If every participant in the annual Championship contributed equally there would be, even now, a division of the total server cost by the number of participants. The investment would almost be like buying an expensive car that ought not be crashed during Championship events.

    New driver A, me for example, desires a slot in the Championship for 2017, but I only want to invest in 1 month's worth of Championship fun. I send to the Championship Fund (someone elected to buy the server, and maintain the server, and maintain the account that keeps the server running) one month's worth of server time: 6:50 Euro. I can send via Pay Pal or some other agreed upon transfer.

    A slot is then opened by the manager of the Championship server, for that driver who bought that car for that month.

    3 Drivers participating and the server is funded for 3 months, and a mini-Championship Season is funded for those 3 months.

    Ideas thrown out there for now...
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2017
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