Oh really? Open letter to the community, this time from a dev...?!

I agree on most points with what you are saying, then again a forum is supposed to go it's own way over time there is only so much you can do to change it.

But discussions about setups and driving lines takes a bit more then clicking on a smiley or like button. It takes some preparation, uploading screenshots, screenshot editing and especially a good story to go with your illustrations.

This takes time, more time then linking to a wiki or website about a certain aspect of a simulator. It needs it's own thread right here on this forum, where it rightfully should be.

Some people spend more time here then others, i think there are alot of people out there that come on this forum and love to read the great stories about how good most cars and tracks are, this is also true for the car and track modders, they get alot of encouragement from all over the forum and it must be really motivating for them.

So count your blessings a bit, not all is as it seems to be. What i really love about this forum is that you can allways learn something new about racing even for the veterans out there like me, there are alot of threads out there about brake points, tyre management, setups and much more to eventually make you drive a certain car better then you did before.

 

Aris, I sent in a support request a while ago asking to expand the forum to allow conversations about exactly what you've said. The reply was

So, make up your mind

Expecting a structured and detailed list of threads in a single clumped together 'general chit chat' sub forum isn't really going to work.

Create sub forum sections in the manner that iRacing have, and you'll see the conversation diversify along the lines you've stated.

For the record, I have no idea about these 'special lines' and tricks you talk about. I take every corner in the sim the same way. Seems to work fine.

 

Aris I'm the one who watches onboard videos to get some tips and tricks how to race on the circuit and I'm satisfied all work you've done, so for me ac is complete, all patches and fixes are just improve to make it better but overall there is no another sim in my heart

 

How do I stop the Alfa 155 from locking up and then losing all ability to turn? Under heavy braking the 155 seems to really suffer if you lock a brake, it makes the engine almost stall (or something). If anyone has some idea how to make the front end bite, yet make the rear end compliant on the exit...?

 

lol, LIES!

laFerrari @ Ring.

 

@Aristotelis thank you for this post, I will keep my finger crossed for more stuff about driving and less about needing whatever and wanting all to be perfect.

But I will be really surprised if any of it happens, nice try though and thank you for caring.

As you know, there are thousands driving your simulator every day and enjoying it very much and only a handful, always the same gang, of forum junky with apparently nothing else to do than arguing about futilities.
Some even post about the next update the day after the last update, and even worst some people reply, pathetic really.

 

didnt 1.2.3 fix this?

just to add about the talking of racecraft etc.
i think many people would think their knowledge will get shot down in flames or not be "right". Theres a lot of racers who think they are the lewis hamilton of racing, and people find that intimidating when wanting to share info/

 

I think the main reason for the type of discussion you see on the forum here is the fact a lot of people come here to ask about a problem or request a feature as it is the official portal to get AC support. I don't think it is surprising or unusual, I think you would find the same on amount of joy/technique of driving Vs tech support and request threads here as on the LFS forum, for example. Well, at least when LFS was still popular.

As others have probably mentioned above me, you get a lot more of the sort of topics and discussion your thinking of when you visit some of the Community sites. Also, the things you mention about track detail and corner characteristics and querks are things we love and we discuss them to death on Team Speak when we are racing with each other . Believe me, we appreciate the new level of detail sims like AC and IR bring to the modern sim racing table.

If you wanted to see more discussions like this maybe we could have another forum section called "The Art of Driving", heck maybe even a second official Assetto Portal where we could discuss Car set-ups, driving techniques, league and friendly racing, good battles you had with other drivers etc. There is some of this stuff here now (The good racers thread for example- great to see this kind of thing).

The state of the discussion on the forum currently is just a result of the game still being relatively new and people trying to figure out problems or wanting to see the aspect of the game they like improved. In fact this is same on pretty much every official game forum around.

Additionally and slightly related, the recent live streams have really, really helped with the atmosphere in the community, generating a much better feeling and 100% increase in understanding the limitations and passion and frustrations that the Devs go through.

 

The problem for me when it comes to setup is that I think I need to get over a learning hump before I can really discuss setups. I know what all the individual settings do, that all makes sense I just don't know how to apply them and in what sequence. I don't really have the time to really test whether I'm making a car better or worse. In real life I drive fairly mundane things like vans (lots of different vans) so I'm used to making the most of what I'm given.

Any guide I've read seems incomplete, it explains the individual components but doesn't really go into detail on the process of applying the settings in conjunction with each other, I don't know how to test it all either. It's a bit like when I was learning to take photos, I kept reading up on what all the settings do but it always felt like there was something critical missing from the beginner books, it never explained how to combine all those settings and never went into composition or any of the techniques that are actually more important.

A well illustrated video series would probably be helpful. Anything that can help reduce the amount of time I need to invest in learning setups.

Any business has to deal with know it alls that actually know next to nothing. We call them tire kickers, people who believe they're undiscovered expert engineers telling you to change your product into something they wouldn't be able to afford. If you can fight the urge to tell them to feck off that's all you can do.

 

there are no setup threads because:
1) I remember when members were asking for setups the mods kept telling them to discuss/post their setups are racedepartment.

2) Physics change almost every update.

 

I think that, just like with something like Gran Turismo, the majority who just spend their time driving are not posting on the forums.

In my opinion, forumites tend not to be very representative of the total user base, since guys who take the trouble to create an account on the forum and login either (a) have a problem they need to solve (or want to help others solve their problems) or (b) want to attempt to get things added or changed in game, or to find out about what is coming/changing.

Besides, human nature is also a factor. If you are hotlapping for fun, then you don't really worry about finding the absolute last tenth. If you are competing then you not only want the last tenth but you want to avoid the competition from also finding it. So you keep insights to yourself (or to your own group).

 

I think more people would get invested in the competitive aspects if we had universal leaderboards and better multiplayer options.

Plenty of people enjoy a competitive spirit that aren't the elite aliens who care about their ranking in the top 10 and take it super seriously.

 

@Aristotelis
Nobody, even the most optimistic people, thought that AC would be this piece of mastery. FFB, tyre model, physiscs, cars, tracks, graphics, AI, tools, etc. etc. are 10/10. Your job is amazing.

So, why most of people don´t care about setups or secrets of the tracks? Because they don´t need it.
Why people care about setups in iRacing? Because they need it to be better and up into their career.
So, the necessity the mother of invention

if you want the people find out the setups and the tracks, you need to make an official online career similar to iRacing, you have a much better simulator, so why not? In other case, why to scan tracks? probabily less than 1/1000 will race once in live to one of your scanned tracks and cars.

Most of people go AC online, wreck, close AC and they don´t care at all. Just the opposite that happen in iRacing when a wreck is something very serious.

So if you want people squeeze your amazing simulator, give them a reason, make an online career like iRacing.

(we need it)

 

iRacing Driving School: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqZLBOpI5JFKebBA_i-SCkGRRypXovWv6

Who will made a series like this for AC?

 

AC is a little bit of everything crammed into one sim. There doesn't seem to be a very defined direction to it in my oppinion but up until 1.2 was released I would have called it a driving sim. Physics, graphics and tracks are all the best that money can buy right now but everything else seems to not appeal enough in features to anyone but those like me... shall we say enthusiast simmers who enjoy giving cars a good thrashing within the platform that is given. 1.2 is a step in a different direction, definitely into the more racing category.

I've seen people say it a thousand times, learning how to set up a car is just not... something you easily learn. Learning how to properly drive a track is not just hey lets watch this skip barber video and hold my beer while I do 10 hotlaps.
I've first got into proper sims in 2004-2005 methinks and been learning small bits here and there ever since both on setups and on proper tackling of different tracks. I can't dedicate 6 hours a day to... practice simming. I'm pretty sure most people can't. Yet what I know about setups and so on, 90% of it I learned on this forum. Not the good effort but poor execution pdf files you find online. No, combing the forum AT WORK is what actually taught me how to do some setups, even those are most of the times more messed up than default when we mention race cars not road cars. Add to this how many times I've read that setups don't matter when you're slow and that turned me off. Only to see how much they DO in fact matter even when you're slow.
And learning track secrets... hm, it's an interesting post. Just saw a video by Adam Corolla driving Paul Newman's old Nissan around LAguna Seca explaining how different drivers have different lines on several corners so yeah, just going by an alien's word on it: do it like you always do since that works is not exactly helping any learners.

Best I can offer is, I would like to see this forum branch out. Offer more dedicated sections, with pinned teaching threads just like you can find in the skinning section of this forum. People can then further discuss and ask away their questions according to what they are trying to learn/apply.

 

I did try once to create a thread about setups.

I read your post about lowering tyre pressure and increasing camber and decided to try and learn about setups.

The first thing I noticed was that changing these things made diddly squat difference that I could spot.

At least none I could either objectively measure in any meaningful way (with lap times or whatever else) nor subjectively notice with any different "feeling" I got.

I did hundreds and hundreds of laps in the car /track combo I picked, and there was no real correlation between the lap time and any changes I'd made to the setup.

I tried posting but I got the impression that no one knows anything about setups and it's all mostly handwaving and myths - or, at best, if anyone does know anything they don't really want to say.

Worse I got some responses from people asking to see videos or telling me I could have their setup - completely missing the point that I was trying to learn about setups, not simply apply someone elses and I wasn't really interested in whether I was fast or not - at the point I was posting I was looking for some concrete, objective and measurable evidence that the sliders even changed anything tangible on the road cars.

Ok, sure, on the race cars that have lots of dials to mess with, especially gearing and aero, it's unarguable that some of these sliders make a difference. But the road cars, that basically have just tyre pressure, toe and camber? I couldn't see any and, as I say, I did hundreds and hundreds of laps looking for them.

The lap times I did were within 0.5-1 second of the WR so it wasn't like my driving was so bad it hid any differences.

But yeah, I'd love to get into setups, but the only responses I got were : links to guides that more or less state the obvious "Adjusting the tyre pressure changes the tyre pressure" etc, or guides that talk in almost a flowchart or algorithmic like approach "car is oversteering -> adjust this" and so on.

But there are no real practical examples. I've never really seen anyone start with a car and driving a few corners, and then adjusting things and showing using an app or telemetry or whatever else "look, here's how it's changed and how it's now better (or different) - it's just lots of theory and talk - mostly followed by the main idea that setups don't really matter and they won't make you quicker and blather about "driving style" (which I think is just a polite way of saying someone is slow - he has a different 'driving style' )

When I'm driving the cars I just drive them the way they behave. How would I, for example, decide whether I'm going to fast / turning too much or whatever or that I should change a slider in the setup? I note that when I use the green track, for example, I don't really notice less grip, I just drive at (or under) the limit and the lap time goes down as the race progresses. So perhaps that's partly the problem.

Although I would have thought if there's any merit in making setup changes (and, as I say, I'm talking about the road cars - there's obvious merit in gearing and aero changes) that it should be possible to use an app or telemetry to show the difference.

 

Most of the setup orientated talk happens I find on track day servers.

I remember talking when I first started in the game to some drivers and some would spend ages helping me to understand things I could not get into my thick skull, I'll always be grateful to them. I for one have shared many a time tips I have picked up and my setups, even gone so far with Zonda R at Nordschleife Tourist to post on Race department video of me driving with pedal and gear app showing (nothing I need but for others sake) with setup ini file. I have on occasion been accused of cheating using a hack etc etc, as sometimes I can be such a large margin ahead of person in same car, but many refuse to learn the most valuable lesson in driving and that is attitude change to each and every vehicle and track, they believe themselves to be complete already and only a car setup will have them beating your times easily. It gets a bit tiring to say the least, I am nothing special as a driver, but 1300hrs in the game, you could say I am well practiced. While there are those tiresome beings that expect quick results or start trolling, there are however some really genuine individuals whom will take on board suggestions and you can see them improve, I always try to encourage drivers to find their own setups and understand what they like to feel from a car and make the appropriate changes.

I keep constantly toying with the idea of doing a Driving Academy server for weekends, to get some really good drivers involved that seem to get into anything and go well, but also teach fundamentals of race craft something even more lacking on servers even from some that are quick. It boils down to patience and time. But also willingness to share as there is always someone waiting to trash talk, as Devs find on this forum and we as Driver/players find on track.

 

A subforum for setups is the answer. It has been suggested before on this forum a least a couple of times...and got shot down.

 

Crash within the first 2-10 corners learning the car over several builds -> Rinse and Repeat

 

I do enjoy the forum layout here, the simplicity and clarity of what is where, what for and easily visible from the forum main page, deffinetly makes it much more interesting daily follow than most others.
Subforum for every little topic is not a necessity, probably would make the forum experience suffer overall, but I do have to state that a section about mere driving could have a place here. Something that is not about bugs, not about weather (other than when it affects the setup and how to drive, which it does... a lot.), not about asking for features, but merely about driving/racing/setups/tracks/cars and anything related. Place where even the Kunos members could hop in share their experiences, is it Real life stuff or within the game, without having to answer 800 questions about the next patch.

I think this is, as it's already been mentioned here, more likely to happen behind closed doors, within teams and leagues. It does not mean that it couldn't be part of the daily read on these forums as well.
I just think it could be useful to seperate forementioned section from the smorgasbord of blah blah blah of the chitchat forum, if for no other reason than just to make a distinction between the topics that are expected/acceptable, it would be worth it.

Eeek!!!

It is the norm that the game mechanics are talked about in the franchise forums, considering that there could be some devs around. This also brings out the "Kysyvä ei tieltä eksy." (Finnish idiom) translation: "The one who asks doesn't lose their way." AKA, there's no shame in asking. Unfortunately there is too many who think this is a good reason to also demand things, just because they invested that xx euros, they must deserve it, hence it turns into "Yksi tyhmä kysyy enemmän, kuin kymmenen viisasta ehtii vastata." (Finnish idiom) translation: "One stupid person asks more than ten wise ones can spare time answering."

Anywhoo... Talking about racing, simracing, cars, tracks, setups, technical crap is something I can spend countless hours doing, so I'm game!!
I think that we have enough sections to take care of the Assetto Corsaness around these forums, plus the modding seems to be covered as well, adding a tab for driving isn't going to kill the forum police is it?