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Physics changed in 0.2.1?

Discussion in 'ACC General Discussions' started by Axel Vogelsang, Oct 16, 2018.

  1. Axel Vogelsang

    Axel Vogelsang Simracer

    Are there changes regarding the physics with the latest update?
    I have not seen this topic in the changelog but it feels (just) a bit different.
    BTW: thanks for solving the 30min crash issue! Brilliant work!
     
    Axel Vogelsang, Oct 16, 2018
    #1
    kiril_r likes this.

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  2. Frankiez

    Frankiez Gamer

    Well, I agree. Same setup feels different since I struggle to match my best times. Car feels somewhat more slippery.

    One issue still remains is the massive understeer slide in slow corners. When the car starts to understeer, it just continues to do so even in very slow speed (with warm tyres). Since my wheel does not give any feedback when the traction is about to be gone, it is very difficult to anticipate the loss of traction. But when it starts, then it continues and continues.

    That is the most "unrealistic" feature of all racing games. If I remember correct, in GTR sim that was modeled pretty decently. Usually just lifting the throttle for a second restores the traction when driving on the limit (and beyond).

    This is a good video to show quickly traction is restored by small fast correction when understeer starts. Same principles apply when driving saloon/GT racer

     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
    Frankiez, Oct 17, 2018
    #2
  3. Aristotelis

    Aristotelis Will it drift? Staff Member KS Dev Team

    Nothing has been changed in the physics in v.0.2.1

    About the massive understeer, it really is down to your driving technique. You can also feel the understeer, but it's a delicate thing. If you oversteering way too much, pressing on the brakes way too much then you will never fill a difference and this is the most common mistake we see out there. There is no way a RWD car with massive slick tyres and 10° to 15° castor angle will transmit substantially less force in the steering wheel because you are understeering. Don't judge by FWD power understeer experience.

    We model the proper forces that arrive to the steering wheel. GTR and some other sims were modelling only the realignment force of the tyres which is tenths of times lower than actual forces. Unfortunately this has teached simracers for many years, bad habits that we still fight today... but that's not what a real steering wheel transmits.
     
    Aristotelis, Oct 17, 2018
    #3
    dermonty, Schnipp, liakjim and 25 others like this.
  4. Rehooja

    Rehooja Simracer

    Really like the amount detail in you commit into your answers Aristotelis :)
     
    Rehooja, Oct 17, 2018
    #4
    Schnipp, Fremen_78, Ricky Reject and 1 other person like this.
  5. Frankiez

    Frankiez Gamer

    I'm not talking about FWD cars here, I have a race car (RWD, E46 M3 race prepped, and yes, not a GT3 car) of my own, so I have some experience even though by no means I'm not a professional driver. I'm talking about the fine line between traction and sliding in slow turns and the feeling of losing the grip when I'm trying to find the limit between grip and sliding. At the moment, my TM TMX Pro (maybe setup issue, don't know) does not give me any kind of feedback about that fine line, it just switches to understeer and continues and continues to oversteer like in gravel even though no pressing gas pedal of brakes. In my experience, in those situations usually small quick correction returns the grip.

    Please, do not take this personally (people seem to be quite tense in this forum), I like the game very much but this issue to me is one major matter which affects my driving experience. I played GTR (if that even was the game) like 10 years ago, so my memories can trick me. However, I was not talking about FFB in GTR, just how to traction return from understeer.
     
    Frankiez, Oct 17, 2018
    #5
  6. Aristotelis

    Aristotelis Will it drift? Staff Member KS Dev Team

    Hi there, my compliments for the car, I used to have an E36 M3 and my friend at the time had the E46...ahh the duels at the track days :D

    No worries at all, I'm not taking this personally. The tense you might sense sometimes is probably because some arguments have been discussed many many times before and sometimes it is tiring to go through them again. Also the game right now is in EA and as such, some people feel it doesn't fulfill their expectations so they complain (rightfully so). Sometimes the complains go too far, other people react and so on... It's ok, it will get better.

    Anyway, back to our very interesting subject.
    A racing slick GT3 tyre has a much more edgy behaviour. When it starts to slide, it needs much faster reactions than a street, or a semislick or even "rally" slick that is often used on trackday cars. On top of that, the cars have a lot of downforce. When you start to slide, some of this downforce is lost or moves in a different balance, making the car harder to drive on the limit. It's not a secret that even though the GT3 cars are made "easy" enough for gentlemen drivers, with TC and ABS and all, there's still quite a gap between silver drivers and PROs, even on the same car. That's why the GT4 series is becoming so successful, as the cars are much easier to drive.

    Also don't take it personally on your side, but obviously I don't know what your experience is on the real track, or on the sims. A video replay of your driving can help us both to understand and see if things can be improved on our side, or on your configuration.
    Regarding GTR again, a monumental sim back in the days, I have helped a bit with its creation by being beta tester back then and then producing a total mod for it, so I think I know it quite well. Still, I believe we are different levels of realism above. I hope we will match and surpass the gameplay too, later on.
     
    Aristotelis, Oct 17, 2018
    #6
    chakko, dermonty, Ace Pumpkin and 12 others like this.
  7. Hany

    Hany Alien

    One thing to add is when u leave the racing line (rubber on track) your car will just understeer. Make sure to stay on that line all the time. In ac the whole track has the same amount of grip which made it easy to take different lines without losing any time.

    Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G920F met Tapatalk
     
    Hany, Oct 17, 2018
    #7
    Ace Pumpkin, mms, LeDude83 and 4 others like this.
  8. Aristotelis

    Aristotelis Will it drift? Staff Member KS Dev Team

    Very true. You can feel the difference between hotlap/hotstint/race modes (all have more or less rubbered line and marbles outside) VS practice where all the track has lower grip but equal in all the track width
     
    Aristotelis, Oct 17, 2018
    #8
    mms and LeDude83 like this.
  9. Naondave

    Naondave Racer

    It’s just going to take some getting used to.

    I’ve always played AC with the understeer effect on because I liked the feedback I was getting especially on the older cars. With the G29 I could catch slides due to the feedback. I could keep the Lotus 49 on the road. With it off, it was complete frustration.

    You guys have done such a great job with this so far. Even hot lapping is the same joy as when firing up AC is even to this day. Can’t wait to see how it develops. I haven’t even touched iRacing since it’s been out and I’m also back into AC again since we have the night mod now.
     
    Naondave, Oct 17, 2018
    #9
    Fremen_78 and McNappa like this.
  10. Frankiez

    Frankiez Gamer

    That is true and it's very well modelled. However, I was talking understeer modelling in racing line and in slow corners. In slow corners (speed below ~90km/h), the understeer in racing line stops very slowly, it just continues and continues.
    As I said, I love the game but this matter is something that affects my driving experience quite a lot. Maybe its lack of feedback from my wheel (may be just a setting/configuration issue) and it is fixed in later versions of the game
     
    Frankiez, Oct 17, 2018
    #10
  11. Echo_29

    Echo_29 Hardcore Simmer

    Understeer effect in the FFB is also a desired option IMO, I used it in AC which works brilliantly, but I cant feel when the car is understeering in ACC with my T500, only tire noise and heavy wheel. Please add this FFB option in the future pretty please. :D
     
    Echo_29, Oct 17, 2018
    #11
    Simon Mitchell and icemanzp like this.
  12. mantasisg 2

    mantasisg 2 Alien

    Devs has to save simracers from themselves who wish to be absolutely guided by FFB. Give me more understeer info, give me more oversteer info... make me an FFB which would drive car itself, so I just could sit and watch. I used to have understeer effect for some time in AC too, till I learned about pneumatic and mechanical trails, that it is affected a lot by caster, then I stopped using it. And Aris just wrote in this thread that those cars has huge caster angle, so I assume there is a lot of mechanical trail.
     
    mantasisg 2, Oct 18, 2018
    #12
    TheBoss and LeDude83 like this.
  13. LeDude83

    LeDude83 Alien

    This expectation of the famous understeer FFB drop is one of the major misconceptions amongst sim racers, it seems. People must understand that there is no direct link between front tyre slip rate and wheel torque!
    Asking for it as an option is one thing, expecting such a sensation in the wheel as something realistic and intrinsic to each car configuration is just annoying.
     
    LeDude83, Oct 18, 2018
    #13
    grrdabrr likes this.

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