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Physics Philosophy 101

Discussion in 'Chit Chat Room' started by vegaguy 5555, Oct 18, 2016.

  1. vegaguy 5555

    vegaguy 5555 Alien

    This topic makes or breaks sim driving for me. That's why I enjoy Assetto Corsa. It is the most real. I can just go for a drive and be sold on the effect.

    Most nights are good. Everything feels all right. Some nights, however, are disastrous. Nothing has changed, most times, but my attitude.

    It doesn't matter how well I can drive a real car if I can't separate what would really happen and what I think should happen.

    What is right and what still needs work with Assetto Corsa's physics or do you think there shouldn't be any more tire mods?

    I don't mind limitations. I just want to know what they are and stop banging my head on them. A known problem is less annoying then a mysterious one that may or may not be my imagination.

    The first thing someone does when they try driving the sim is go too fast and brake too late, the exact opposite of what they would do in a real car. What is this telling us?

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  3. chakko

    chakko Alien

    That there is a difference between sitting in a real multi thousand dollars car, and sitting on a chair in front of a screen, with a plastic steering wheel plugged into a computer. :p There's also a difference in perception of course. In a real car, you feel every movement, and, unless you sit in a car for the first time, you will also develop a feeling of when it is becoming dangerous, unless you're a jerk, which of course holds true for some people. For example i knew someone who really had no feeling at all for the danger he was in, when he drove 180 km/h at blistering rain... he had quite a few accidents of course, and never learned. The main difference between a sim and real life for me is therefor that you have so many forces in a real car, which you don't have in the sim, even with motion simulators. That's also why i believe that much should come from the wheel itself, as, obviously, the developers of a sim have to develop for people with a steering wheel only, but also for people with DD wheels, motion simulators, VR goggles and so on.

    IMO, AC already gives a lot of feedback on a g27 wheel, so, basically, rather low end equipment, and that's how it should be. If you can do it technically, then why waste that potential? Especially as you can do a lot with the pure feedback you get in a controller. It won't be as in the reality, but it already gives you a damn good impression of that. Of course, you always need time to adjust, but our brain is able to adjust to so many things.

    For the question of what is still lacking in AC, i don't think any sim is perfect. I do really only have minor niggles with the physics in AC though. What i do notice is that the cars all differ a bit in terms of driving physics. But then, that holds true for a lot of sims out there, and don't get me started on iRacing, some cars are night and day there... try some ealy development cars, and then try some newer cars, and you will see a HUGE difference in terms of driving physics. That's too extreme then. Apart from that, tire model 7 introduced a bit of a werid understeer behavior, which IMO has been fixed with model 10 though, which really feels awesome. I really don't have much to complain at all, it really gives me a great physics feeling and FFB right out of the box, where in other sims, i always feel like something is lacking, or i have to spend a lot of time adjusting FFB. What i do think is that the surface simulation still lacks a bit though. In reality, you don't only lose grip on surfaces like grass, or gravel traps, it also bumps the car due to the bumpy surface. Race 07 is a sim which modelled that quite nicely. That could be improved in AC. Also, i do think the off track areas, and especially the green painted areas have too small grip. And the curbs seem too slippery too. If Kunos would fix those things, it'd be great. But, i am very happy in general nonetheless. All just small niggles. :)
  4. mantasisg 2

    mantasisg 2 Alien

    Will NSX mod be ever updated ? And does it have too much grip now ?

    Does car sound change how we sense the handling also ? If the engine would be louder on high revs would it break traction more easily ?

    Could I lap real 98T around Brands Hatch in 1'10 ?

    Thats all phylosophy, I can't sleep, because I can't find the answers.

    When I'll find the answers to these problems, I think, I'll be able to connect the dots, and I'll master everything then.

    Well to be serious... Physics guys should speak up about tire models, not philosophers :D For me V10 is awesome, it could deform visually in AC2 lol sorry

    Why people suck a lot the very first time they use simulator ? I guess thats because they have totally wrong attitude. Everybody is different, one of my friends just understeered everywhere, the other was fine and they both used driving simulator for 1st time.
    vegaguy 5555 likes this.
  5. vegaguy 5555

    vegaguy 5555 Alien

    Nicely said! And here I thought I was going to get a video clip from Michael!
  6. vegaguy 5555

    vegaguy 5555 Alien

    The power of sound is no joke my friend!:)
    Really am looking forward to the new sound mod.
    mantasisg 2 and Lawndart like this.
  7. martcerv

    martcerv Alien

    Similar to above the drive too fast and brake too late, learn by crashing mentality of most people in sims will never change. There are no costs and no risk of injury with a reset button plus new car every time you escape to pits. You could make people only have 1 car damage it and pay to fix or buy a new one lol but that would really suck. Basic session limitations for mp would be an interesting option, simple thing such as if you dont drive back to your pit box your session is over. Also tyre limits for a race weekend so you only get a few sets and may need to re use some, so badly damage a set will compromise your race possibly.

    Physics wise nothing is ever perfect and if they find better ways of doing things then its always nice to improve any aspect of the game or physics model. Currently to me of all other sims AC has the most natural feel and I dont need to learn to drive any car like in some other game/sims. To get faster in them sure you need to find what is the best way to manage this but simply to get around a lap at a reasonable pace its not like you need to forget all you know about driving and start from scratch.
    snyperal, vegaguy 5555 and chakko like this.
  8. chakko

    chakko Alien

    Yep, that's exactly how i feel about it too. :)
    vegaguy 5555 likes this.
  9. vegaguy 5555

    vegaguy 5555 Alien

    For physics with the game pad I give Gran Turismo, 5 stars. I sure had fun playing with my son.

    Also going back further, EA Sports NASCAR PS1 I think it was. Playing with my nephew. Bump one car and there was tires, smoke and cars everywhere. I couldn't believe the physics I could get through a game pad.

    The wheel though, was a real game changer. No pun intended!:)
    Mario Moretti likes this.
  10. Salajutsu

    Salajutsu Hardcore Simmer

    Sound in a game and IRL definitely changes the perception of how things are working. Revving a Corvette for the first time is exciting. Then you punch it down the road and all that adrenaline is changing the way you perceive your speed and suspension motion. Makes it quite hard to tell the difference between accurate or delusion'ed.

    The lack of fear plays even more a part in this sense.

    AC feels the most natural to me. I plug in the wheel and feel like I'm controlling the same thing I get in IRL (not exactly the same but generally). In other sims, even normal driving feels like I have to "get used to it". That's not right to me. A lack of knowing that the car has power, the lack of low speed grip (which AC used to have an issue with this early on). Probably the most difficult part about simulations, is that the way you use your eyes has so much to do with it. Many elders who've raced IRL but never even touched a computer don't find it correct, mostly because the sense of speed doesn't apply to their brains. Or that they expect a "video game" to show 60mph as literal light speed travel. Because "video game" (it's sad how true this really is...)

    There's even ppl who are "impressed" that cars have brake lights in a game. something that's been around since the dawn of general car games.

    Am I convinced with AC's physics? HELL YEAH! I've been a pizza delivery driver for a while in a 5sp 99 Dakota with a locked diff, super stiff rear shocks and old shishy spring in the front. COMPLETELY against physics, but it's set up to have a lot of steering wheel feel. It's VERY similar, and reminiscent of AC in that I can apply similar basic techniques to drive (granted a truck like this is nowhere near the driving style of any of the AC cars). Now if only we can get true gearbox simulation, and clutch input simulation, THEN we'll be getting somewhere...

    The last part that's hard to identify with to real life, is that any car you pick in AC, is brand new. Like 0 miles. Or at least, carefully "broken in" on a dyno to a level of absolute perfection. The last time I drove something brand new was a Uhaul :D.

    EDIT: What would REALLY sell me on physics, is if someone (or KUNOS) were to make a "used" car. Like....a Pontiac Grand Am with 191,000 miles on it and used tires, old shocks, and a bad ball joint on the front left. Sway bar linkage on the rear is going, and the car has lost up to 30 hp over time. It's to the point where paying for repairs goes beyond worthy, and it's better to sell in order to get something better. Instead of selling, might as well destroy it on track! This is basically what living in America is like for the younger generations ;) (for the slightly less responsible lol)
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2016
    TDS and vegaguy 5555 like this.
  11. MrDeap

    MrDeap Hardcore Simmer

    The biggest deal breaker on a racing game for me is when the car is oversteering & you can get away with by leaving the steering straight. Or it understeer a super long time(FR~MR layout) & get away with it.

    By reading what is a slip angle, my biggest grip in racing games is how the car understeer. Well I do notice that often the slip angle have been dialed down greatly(less twitchy). The back wheel doesn't steer, but change direction while cornering, which make the car rotate. Again, because the back end rotate, the slip angle on the front tires is reduced, because it rotate, thus you feel the car rotate even when understeering. Obviously, no rotation while understeer... the car won't turn & go straight.

    When you race you don't turn, but you actually make the car rotate & it is the right way in my opinion to see how it handle.

    The apex point change a bit because of the rotation. I suppose the target point is near the back tire on the wheelbase. It's a pivot point that slip.
    vegaguy 5555 likes this.
  12. vegaguy 5555

    vegaguy 5555 Alien

    I drove tractor trailers. I know, not an F1, but trust me, just because you turn the wheel doesn't mean anything is going to happen... right away. But when it does. Big truck, big weight transfer.

    I think it is the understeer/weight transfer that is the part I am trying to get my head around.
  13. chakko

    chakko Alien

    Not quite sure what you mean there. But, if you mean that you slightly put a drift angle when going into a corner when racing, i do that on every sim, and it's perfectly doable.
  14. MrDeap

    MrDeap Hardcore Simmer

    It's not drifting. The tire deform & the contact patch change direction.
    When you understeer you lose all front traction & I suppose the rear lose the slip angle due to no more force lateral force available, thus end up going straight. When cornering efficiently, you kind of take a sort of small drift angle, meaning that the back end actually change direction due to lateral force while gripping.

    Obviously while drifting the front tire also get lateral force & the contact patch change from it.
  15. chakko

    chakko Alien

    I don't quite get your point to be honest. Probably my lack of proper english language skills.
    Solmyr likes this.
  16. vegaguy 5555

    vegaguy 5555 Alien

    So I would guess that a taller sidewall tire would exaggerated this effect.
  17. mantasisg 2

    mantasisg 2 Alien

    @MrDeap It is hard for me to understand what you talk about exactly. Maybe I hit language barier too soon, or it is too philosophical :D But I think that the behavior you are concerned about is mostly related to inertia of rear end.
  18. MrDeap

    MrDeap Hardcore Simmer

    With slick & a taller wall will probably result a larget contact patch & more likely exaggerate this effect of rotation.
  19. Nao

    Nao Alien

    I'm so confused by this thread lol.

    @MrDeap I'm having a hard time understanding what is your point. "The biggest deal breaker on a racing game for me is when the car is oversteering & you can get away with by leaving the steering straight." Is this directed at AC? Because it can happen in this game... but it can happen IRL too. And in both cases it can happen without violating the theory behind slip angles that you have shown - it looks like a contradiction. And then you go into rear slip angle influencing understeer/oversteer for some reason.
    Also you answer chakko's post writing about "a drift angle" saying it is "not drifting" only to acknowledge that it is indeed "drift angle" in the next line - so you are agreeing with him or not... so confused XD
    Tim Meuris, PhilS13 and mantasisg 2 like this.
  20. mantasisg 2

    mantasisg 2 Alien

    Physics and Philosophy is indeed a weird mix lol
    Lord Kunos and aphidgod like this.
  21. vegaguy 5555

    vegaguy 5555 Alien

    Sorry guys.

    When driving in a sim, I'm always and probably no matter how perfect the software will ever be, will always question if it is right or am my thinking about it wrong. Mostly because in a sim you have to fill in a lot of blanks.

    As great as AC is I don't think... It's perfect. And I think it just might be more perfect then I'm excepting.

    Most nights the software is making love to my fingers and ears but some nights everything is wrong.

    I get why my friends find it annoying, but it can be so wonderful too.

    What is right and what still needs attention?

    It is getting close I think.

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