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Query: Should TC/ABS be this necessary?

Discussion in 'ACC General Discussions' started by domidomi, Sep 28, 2018.

  1. domidomi

    domidomi Gamer

    Am i out of line for even bringing it up? Yes, i get that the real GT3 cars use ABS and TC, i have no qualms with it, but i would think performance would be closer to that in-game assist graph, which suggests that in perfect conditions you shouldn't need high-TC to be fast.

    Every sub-1:55 (poor choice of yardstick, i know, but what else can i go on?) video i've seen on HotLap has been TC 7/8 or 8/8. I hate myself, so i drive without assists, and i'm okay with being slower because of it, but it feels like too great a gap. TC 2/8 doesn't seem to do much to prevent anything, car still feels like it's on ice, but at 4/8 if my steering inputs are smooth i can stomp on the gas with impunity. Stomping at 4/8 i can pull 4 seconds on my smoothest, most-precise no-assists lap.

    I'm not trying to b17ch, i would just like people to weigh in on whether i'm delusional. Are GT3 cars pretty much undriveable without assists?
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2018

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  3. Timberwind

    Timberwind Racer

    A tire has the best performance, if it slips slightly. So too little slip and you lose time, too much and you are in the wall. And here comes race traction control in, which helps massively between those extremes and maximizes your speed. That people with fast times use 7/8 and 8/8 traction control makes perfect sense as it allows a high slip. But with 2/8 you should feel much more planted. However there seem to be bugs around where it harms more than it helps. For example upshifts with TC upset the car.
     
  4. BEsnake

    BEsnake Racer

    Should also help during endurance wont it? would make it alot easier to manage the tyre's for sure in 24 hours where keeping the tyres in good condition is a must
     
  5. Rudski

    Rudski Alien

    You should associate your account on steam.

    HOW TO ASSOCIATE YOUR STEAM ACCOUNT

    the process is very simple. Basically it's a 3-steps process.

    Your forum user has its own password in order to log on this forum. Remember it.

    Go on the external accounts page and click "Associate with Steam". You will be automatically redirect to the official Steam website. Here you need to log in with your Steam credentials (that you use with Steam client too). Done that, you will be automatically redirect on our forum again. Last step: it will ask for your FORUM PASSWORD. Put it into the text field and the process is done.
    http://www.assettocorsa.net/forum/index.php?account/external-accounts
     
  6. domidomi

    domidomi Gamer

    If i must, here i go.

    Timber, I'm pretty certain it works the exact other way around, and that's my issue. The people with the best times are those with the most invasive and limiting TC settings. If i keep the TC on low, i get into that almost-unrecoverable oversteer-overcorrect shimmy until it calms down, OR i have to part-throttle until the car is almost completely straight before accelerating. But cranking the TC up and planting your foot at the apex while the assist throttles your throttles for you gives massive time gains. Even in perfect weather conditions it doesn't seem possible to do a good lap without assists. Does this seem wrong to anyone else?
    I want to point out, again, that i'm not suggesting that no-assists should be faster. I'm simply asking if a gap this big makes sense to people?
     
    LeDude83 and paulieGTR like this.
  7. mkotechno

    mkotechno Simracer

    Wut? AFAIK in AAC higher assist numbers means more assist, so minimal slip in case of 8/8 TC.
     
    LeDude83 likes this.
  8. TDS

    TDS Alien

    you're correct... opposed to AC1 where higher values means less effective.
     
    LeDude83 likes this.
  9. DuckeyTapey

    DuckeyTapey Hardcore Simmer

    Hmm, I did my current PB with 1/8 TC, guess I should try high TC, maybe then I'll catch up to the top guys. And I don't even have a good throttle input method. :rolleyes:
     
    LeDude83 and mantasisg like this.
  10. Timberwind

    Timberwind Racer

    I have not played much ACC, so I did not know that. Interesting they swapped it the other way around.
     
  11. th3o

    th3o Hardcore Simmer

    i am driving with TC 4 and for me it's the perfect balance between being able to accelerate out of corners but still have to be at least a bit careful when doing so out of 2nd gear.
    i found that TC 8 makes the driving feel super unspectacular and safe as if my grandmother could drive the car, i felt like i was at times not even driving myself sort of.
    actually i feel that GT3 cars can at times feel like a Kart, it has much grip but once you overdrive it, you can loose it pretty fast. it feels glued to the road but once a bit over the limit it's a very twitchy beast and you have to be always ready to catch it's snappy ***. i like that.
     
  12. Epistolarius

    Epistolarius Alien

    Traditionally TCS is used in GT3 race cars to control tyre wear over a stint (or double-stint) and provide a safety net for amateurs and when racing under adverse track/weather conditions. TCS 8/8, as indicated on the setup page is supposed to be used in wet conditions. So... setting TCS as high as possible shouldn't be necessary in order to be faster under perfect dry conditions but I do get the impression as well that you can't go wrong and are always faster with setting TCS to something high in ACC (pretty much the opposite to how it was in AC). Curious to see how it is in some of the other upcoming cars.
     
  13. paulieGTR

    paulieGTR Alien

    Yeah well i've always been under the impression that in all sims and real racing series, that '0' zero Traction means zero traction, 8/higher numbers would mean more traction control. Same goes for abs. :)

    Saying that... i never used traction control nor abs in AC.
    I tried, but couldn't get used to abs and was always faster without it, but this ACC seems to be a completely different beasty.

    I just think real race drivers make GT3 and race cars in general, look easy to drive.
    ACC is definitely a bit of a learning curve again, assist settings that is, but driving also.

    The old adage from my GTR days comes to mind... "easy to drive, hard to master"
    With ACC, there's probably never truer words to be said. yet. :)

    Oh and it'll be absolutely no surprise to the community, i've no idea what settings these real GT3 drivers are using, or how they do it, especially in the wet.

    Loving all these topics though, interesting for sure. :cool:
     
  14. Epistolarius

    Epistolarius Alien

    ABS/TCS maps are often fully programmable so it could be either way around.
     
    LeDude83 and paulieGTR like this.
  15. DuckeyTapey

    DuckeyTapey Hardcore Simmer

    Well, at least for me laptimes are close together during hotlap in dry conditions, no matter what TCS, even with TCS off, so it's normal you'll see people drive with high TCS settings if it doesn't slow them down much, but makes accelerating in certain situations much easier. TCS won't make a difference of several seconds like OP mentioned he's experiencing.
     
  16. paulieGTR

    paulieGTR Alien

    Pretty weird setting though, if i'm being honest.

    ie. TC Off - then add 1 click and it's at max, with more subsequent clicks lowering it.
     
  17. domidomi

    domidomi Gamer

    Aight, this is what i wanted to hear. I'll try messing around with it, maybe my setup is weird. How you describe it is how i imagine things ought to be. Thanks!
     
  18. Minolin

    Minolin Staff Member KS Dev Team

    In ACC, high TC/ABS values mean more electronics interaction, increasing stability but lowering performance above a certain point (which depends on driver abilities, track conditions and car/quality of the TC/ABS).
    Almost all GT3 cars express their assist settings like this (I think only the Mercedes does it the other way round).

    To the actual question: Start thinking like a race driver. Even those who state they would prefer driving without aids do use them. It's 2 simple questions:

    a) Does it make me faster* ?
    b) Is it allowed?

    2x yes means you use it, peroid. Race ABS/TC (not comparable to what you know from street cars) add free performance that can't really be matched manually while having only one pedal for brake or gas, at least if the assist is decent (may vary by car).

    *faster is of course more a question of race pace considering a lot more than the hotlap pace simracers are focused on, despite our efforts :D
    But for TC/ABS, the answers are the same.
     
    chksix, LeDude83, M96 and 7 others like this.
  19. Epistolarius

    Epistolarius Alien

    But it makes you think when the fastest times are supposedly driven with TCS set to what correlates on the setup screen to "Wet".

    Well, I still maintain what I said above. TCS is used in endurance race cars mainly to control tyre wear over stints, then for racing under adverse track conditions, lastly to be faster/more consistent and provide a safety net for amateurs.
     
    MathMilitary likes this.
  20. domidomi

    domidomi Gamer

    I definitely agree with your notion, even if it pushes me away from the ACC content. If at 8/8TC and max ABS i'm fastest - i'd rather be slower, but feel like i contributed to my time. This, of course, is a personal preference thing and doesn't cast implications on the game or its simulation of reality. If that's how the real cars behave - that's how it should be, and if i don't like it i should drive a spec Miata in AC1 or whatever.

    The reason i wasted everyone's time with this thread is specifically to talk about whether this is realistic. I expect that in real life with and without TC on a bright and warm day, wearing fresh and warm rubber, a good GT3 driver ought to be able to do a lap without assists and score within a second or so of their best assisted time. Duckey is reporting that he's getting similar numbers and that brings me relief. Because for me, the gap is 3 or 4 seconds, and that made it seem like the tire model is only made to work with traction control. Again, going by what Duckey said, it seems the issue is my own ineptitude and that's an answer i vastly prefer to the game's model being bad. I will go back to the drawing board and try to get results similar to Duckey's.

    Sidenote: If i manage to get within a second of my best time without assists, this will bring me way more of a sense of accomplishment than if i bump by TC to 9 out of 8 and improve my overall time by a second and a half. I just don't care to be fastest, it isn't my thing, and i suck at it anyway. I'll save my opinion of the rain model for another time. I actually like that one. :p
     
  21. Aristotelis

    Aristotelis Will it drift? Staff Member KS Dev Team

    To be fair, and I say that while I still work on the TC/ABS logic which is quite tricky on those cars, I'm doing my best laps at TC 3 to 5, depending on the track.
    To give a perspective, I do 1.53 mid-mid/high at Nurb with 20lt of fuel and TC at 3.

    Keep in mind that all replays show 6/6 by default, as replay does not register the TC/ABS real values.
    Also keep in mind that some extreme alien setups that circulate, might use high TC because they are very oversteery and need TC to stabilize the car at the initial throttle application. Is this realistic? No, but it isn't realistic to destroy many cars trying while to find the extreme setup and do a flying hotlap at perfect conditions. I believe they will go back to more normal setups while racing, but then again, aliens are aliens so everything goes.

    I repeat, still working on TC/ABS and I have already made progress, so not saying it's perfect. (hey even real manufacturers keep working on those, it's one of the most important aspects of development I've been told).
     

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