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Racecraft. Defending your position - is it always worth it ?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat Room' started by mantasisg 2, Nov 6, 2017.

  1. mantasisg 2

    mantasisg 2 Alien

    Hello, I thought that it is interesting subject to discuss. When I race, I never defend very aggressively, but there definitely are tactics behind it, even when mostly racing 10-20mins short races, sprint races. I never bother to aggressively defend massively faster racers than me, defending on medium level against simracers like me, and being quite aggressive against slower drivers while at the same time trying to avoid divebombs.

    In my mind in some cases, defending a position causes in more loss than win, as very tight battles results in significantly worse laptimes, allowing for more cars to actually catch you and also ruining hopes to catch the front field. At some point defeat must be admitted.

    However, being too polite also doesn't mix with racing. Whats the point to let someone through, if you are going to be fighting against that same car to get the position back. Or is it always good to leave gaps for faster driver to go through ? Does it make sense as a race ? Even if that driver would pass you later anyway, and you know it.

    In my opinion defend hard if you can keep up with your opponents pace, or if you are in good position and/or the end of the race is near. Otherwise don't defend like maniac, and give that guy who is 3s faster per lap than you at least a slight gap.

    Both are responsible for clean racing, not only the following car IMO.

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  3. LeDude83

    LeDude83 Alien

    For me it depends entirely on the person I have a duel with.

    1) I know the guy well
    a) I know he's significantly faster than me: I let him pass at the next safe
    chance. I try to not hectically jump out of the way because being unpredictable is the common reason for crashes.
    b) He's around my pace: I defend in a predictable fashion. I won't clinch to my position but I won't open a door for him, either.

    2) I don't know the guy:
    a) I sense he's much faster (always comes out of turns directly at my bumper no matter my line): I let him pass at the next safe chance. If he happens to be my pace, after all, I can apply pressure now.
    b) He's blocking me all the time and I know I'm faster: don't attempt to overtake him unless it's very clear I can make it without ever getting close to him. Hardly ever does such a situation last longer than half a lap - the guy usually crashes before.

    Edit: I mapped on/off flashlights to my wheel using Joy2Key. Helps a whole lot in letting people around you know to be aware. I use it to signal to faster guys that I'm about to let them pass and use it if someone's blocking me. It works quite well, I think.
    aotto1977, Biner and mantasisg 2 like this.
  4. Skybird

    Skybird Alien

    The guy in lead has the right of way.

    If I see somebody behind me being faster than I am, I do not intentionally block him, but if there is essess or turns coming, I stick to my line and even may sway a little bit to indicate he better leaves me some space for margin of errors I maybe make. There are good drivers out there, but many of them overestimate other drivers and assume these are as good as they are themselves -or think they are. Because sometimes these drivers do not overestimate the other, but themselves.

    I let faster cars pass on the next non-dangerous passage of the track, preferrably a wide turn or a straight. In real world, blue flags do not mean you have to let the other pass immediately. They mean you have to let him pass within a reasonable time window.

    If an alien superdriver zooms in at warp speed and thinks this means all and evertyhing has to jump out of his way just because he is coming, then he is no good driver at all. Good drivers know the track, and can differ between risky passages and passages less risky for overtaking. Good drivers leave margin for errors - theirs, or that of the others.

    Good drivers expect the unexpected. Good drivers anticipate problems in their front sector unfolding, and adapt in time. Good drivers do not expect the other to be perfect and completely predictable.
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
    Biner and D3lta481 like this.
  5. Proody

    Proody Racer

    If someone is faster,
    he finds opportunity to overtake.
    I will not leave my ideal line by which he overtakes me.
  6. colombianomd

    colombianomd Racer

    I would also add, it's important to consider the situation such as sprint race format, casual racing or championship winning implications.

    Also, in some cars, defending could cause abnormal tire wear or temperatures.

    My opinion may not be popular; however, If you are very competitive, and no points at stake, I think you should fight to the end. I think there's more reward for both drivers. It's very rare that someone will NOT make a mistake in those situations. Assuming that both drivers know passing areas there's a lot of risk for the driver making the pass since his or her vision is obscured. For me I would enjoy the battle more than getting a podium. It allows me to improve my racecraft and grow as a simracer.

    Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk
  7. LeSunTzu

    LeSunTzu Alien

    Defending til the end is good, unless it means waving or blocking or braketesting or any other nasty tactics.
  8. Tberg

    Tberg Alien

    Always defending, even against faster guys, but of cause within the racing rules. If I screw up the rules, I let the car by. If you give up without trying, you can't progress as a racer.

    There's absolutely no reason to not defend in sprint races, because tyres or fuel is not a factor. With endurance racing it's entirely different, as hard defending can be useless if the car behind is on fresh tyres or a different pitstrategy, thus it could be wise to let the car pass. If you don't, your own startegy and laps will suffer and you'll be cought up by more cars.
  9. I never let anyone pass me. That's just stupid. This is a race simulator, not a charity. However, there is a difference between defending and blocking. You will never see me do the latter.
    aotto1977, fabT and Minolin like this.
  10. BrandonW77

    BrandonW77 Alien

    I do the same strategy with everyone. If someone is on my tail, when we get to the straight I immediately get on the inside line and stay there, I give them all the room in the world to get around me but I force them to do it on the outside which is always the hardest to accomplish. If they get by me, my hat's off to them and I watch as they disappear into the distance. If they can't get by me I just chuckle as I hear them curse my wide *** over TS. :D
    Pretend racer likes this.
  11. Minolin

    Minolin Staff Member KS Dev Team

    It's exactly this for me:

    Edit: Might add "3) I know we can forgive an accident", especially for inside-line defending. It quite happens to break that meter too late
    LeDude83 likes this.
  12. mantasisg 2

    mantasisg 2 Alien

    I wonder if defending from someone who is 2-3s faster per lap is possible without blocking. IMO good defending is when you leave a bit of space for driver who is quicker, but at the same time taking advantage for the upcoming curve. Also trying not to force other drivers to use brakes in unusual places, exactly like it is on regular road driving - you should never force anyone to brake.

    Anyways, I'm all against charity as well. I'm still learning how much aggressive I can be. It is really nice when some faster racers has big duels in front, and then I'm able to catch them lol Used to happen in ALOOG haha
  13. fabT

    fabT Alien

    Imho it depends on track.
    Narrow, twisty tracks ( e.g. Zandvoort ) allow to defend against noticeable faster opponents without blocking and / or doing something unfair.
    Biner and Tberg like this.
  14. mantasisg 2

    mantasisg 2 Alien

    Yeah in zandwoort just simply using your racing line is already a bit defensive ahhahha, I like this kind of tracks. But doesn't get fun, when you are really gaining and doing much better exit for example, and then you get to brake, or when you overtake before a chicane, and you know that dive is incoming. I really think that in some cases "charity" is better than defense. Only by looking at the mirrors too often makes you loose time, then defensive positions... A few laps more and you'll have not one threat behind, but two or three. And the guy in the front safely escaped.
  15. fabT

    fabT Alien

    Personally i don't mind the lap time when racing somebody close and slowing down is unavoidable whenever the fight gets really pitched.
    Also i find it fun frequently checking the mirrors in order to try to guess my opponent's next move.
    It's a matter of preference i guess.
  16. PhilS13

    PhilS13 Alien

    We had a championship that featured reverse grids not long ago. You would be surprised at the amount of people hopelessly defending against much faster drivers and massively hurting their own end result in the process.

    If it's pickup race do whatever you have more fun doing. If the result matters, most of the time it's not worth losing time fighting against people who will very likely get by at some point anyway.
  17. mantasisg 2

    mantasisg 2 Alien

    Everyone should check mirrors frequently, I meant it takes away pace when glancing at it really frequent, very often. Almost more than looking forward.

    And I don't think that laptime can not be important, everything is down to time, probably it is not very important when you have your position secured, and driver in front is too far, but it is good to stretch the pace anyway, in case driver in front will make a mistake, or just to make the finish gap smaller.

    Not much preferences there, just win as much as you can.

    But must admit that fun factor is the main one, it is way more entertaining to finish 4th while fighting bumper to bumper, than third by racing alone. At least the way we are racing at public servers.
    Pretend racer likes this.
  18. mantasisg 2

    mantasisg 2 Alien

    Thats exactly how I see it. Also, just personal thing, I feel quite stupid if I try to defend someone who is much much faster than me. I usually do it for a few corners, but it (if) starts to get ridiculous, I just leave some space, and it is over. It is really fun, but there is limited amount of this privilege of being at front of someone very much more skilled. Trying to keep up after being overtaken is also a great fun, perhaps more fun IMO.
  19. Andy-R

    Andy-R Alien

    In pub server races I try to leave gaps and not squeeze people too much. It is always relative to the moment though, if I've been squeezed a lot or i'm getting mobbed and then stuck behind people who are way off pace I might start sticking my elbows out a bit more.

    The one that really annoys me (happened a few times over the years) is when you have been stuck behind someone running quite far off pace for a lot of laps and you dont do anything too aggressive, finally you find a way by and they send it up the inside on the first corner they are behind giving you the choice of either holding your line and having a collision or backing out and handing them the place back.
    V8_KB likes this.
  20. V8_KB

    V8_KB Alien

    I don't race in leagues so it's from pub racing perspective.
    This is important to me. I'll defend/attack stronger against someone who I know as a clean driver than against someone who I never saw before.
    If I see someone who is much faster I won't be overly defensive as it's pointless for both of us.

    In general I try not to drive too aggressive, unless someone is a jerk... and pretty much what Andy said above.
    Especially this. Don't be desperate.
    Andy-R likes this.
  21. Berniyh

    Berniyh Alien

    As if that would've ever happened … :p :D
    fabT likes this.

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