1. Do you need support for Assetto Corsa Competizione? Please use the proper forum below and ALWAYS zip and attach the WHOLE "Logs" folder in your c:\users\*youruser*\AppData\Local\AC2\Saved. The "AppData" folder is hidden by default, check "Hidden items" in your Windows view properties. If you report a crash, ALWAYS zip and attach the WHOLE "Crashes" folder in the same directory. Do not post "I have the same issue" in an existing thread with a game crash, always open your own thread. Do not PM developers and staff members for personal troubleshooting and support.
  2. As part of our continuous maintenance and improvements to Assetto Corsa Competizione we will be releasing small updates on a regular basis during the esports season which might not go through the usual announcement process detailing the changes until a later version update where these changes will be listed retrospectively.
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  4. When reporting an issue with saved games, please always zip and attach your entire User/Documents/Assetto Corsa Competizione/Savegame folder, along with the logs and the crash folder (when reporting related to a crash).

Generic Racing incidents - a matter of perspective

Discussion in 'Console Lounge' started by bradleyland, Jun 11, 2017.

  1. bradleyland

    bradleyland Hardcore Simmer

    This is the story of a racing incident from two perspectives. The next time you experience an incident, try to remember that it's a matter of perspective. I know that's going to sound hypocritical when you read how I reacted here, but I'm going to use this incident to try and do better. I hope that the other player does as well.

    Video first:



    Bradleyland's perspective

    Last night while in a 5-lap, Porsche GT3 Cup lobby at Mugello, I was thrilled to qualify 3rd, which is high for me. I recognized some of the guys on the leaderboard, and was looking forward to a nice clean sprint. Things didn't go so well for me when the #1 qualifier spun on the 2nd lap, then tried to work his way back up through the field.

    He caught up to me by T1 on lap 3, and was glued to my bumper. As a defensive strategy, I braked pretty late into T4, and came in to T5 on a narrow line. Admittedly, I was hanging on by a thread, but with the latest patch, I know I can hang on to some pretty gnarly slides in this car. I have also raced with the guy behind before, and I had some level of trust that he would race clean, so I felt confident in my strategy. No doubt, the driver behind had faster pace, but this is racing, and I'm not giving up without a fight. Keep in mind:
    • The rules of racing in most series do not require you to allow a faster driver to pass if you are on the same lap
    • The driver behind did not have position (his bumper was no where near my door)
    • I was not blocking (you are allowed 1 deviation from the racing to defend, but no more)
    Then came the bump. As I rounded out T5, feathering the throttle, I got a solid bump from the rear, and my car went around. Watching the video, it looks like he tried to run an over-under pass, which is a good counter strategy for someone taking the inside line. The problem was, he didn't leave enough room, IMO. That's why he clipped my right rear on his way through.

    Now for the admission of guilt. I did not take it well. At all. The red mist took over. What was, up until this point, a great race with a number of close battles was ruined by perfectly avoidable contact. From my perspective, the guy was simply frustrated that he spun while out front, and was impatient in making his way back up. The hit felt exactly like a bump and run from my perspective. Just hard enough to spin me, but not hard enough to unsettle the guy making the bump.

    So I took the coward's way out. I insta-pitted, waited for him to come around again, and took him out. I was sure to hit him hard enough to break his car. I am not proud of this. I try really hard to not retaliate. Sometimes I do good, but sometimes the red mist gets the better of me.

    Counter-perspective

    I'm hesitant to speak directly for the other player here, but we exchanged messages after the race. He wasn't happy, and neither was I. Fortunately, we worked it out, and he said that after watching the video, he 100% understands why I felt it was a bump and run, but still maintains his innocence. I'm going to paraphrase a couple of his messages below.

    Before he watched my video

    "I watched my own video on the 3rd lap where the incident happened, and I'm already at the curb when you spin. It's close, but I'm telling you, I never touched you."

    "On my replay, there is 100% no sound, and my car loses no momentum. Everything is as fluid as water. I move deep left, you fade out due to playing defense, slide away from turn in as I'm already arched and I move inside on the right from hard left, having never impacted you."

    "If you indeed do get hit, it's down to netcode."

    I make the counter-point that netcode isn't perfect, and you have to leave a little room. My perspective was that based on his screenshots, he was pushing too close. There's applying pressure, and then there's setting yourself up for a wreck. IMO, he was deep in the latter territory. That's irresponsible at best, and dirty racing at worst.

    After watching my video

    "You obviously received contact judging by the 'hit marker', but I disagree with your assumption that there wasn't enough room. Yes, you did get the raw end of that."

    "I'm sorry, it wasn't a distance issue, you were defending too hard and it cost you the race."

    "To block it's give and take."

    "I do know what it's like from that end, but at the same time, I have one circumstance, and you have another. We didn't experience the same incident."

    "I 100% respect what you're saying as well, btw."

    Where does that leave us?

    The lesson I've taken away from this is two-fold:

    1) I plan to remain aware that when I'm racing close, there's a chance that I could impact another player without knowing. To me, avoiding contact is priority #1. Race clean first, win second. I hope to be able to keep this in mind in the heat of the moment.

    2) I will try to remember that other players may not have this knowledge, and they don't intend to spin me.
     

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  3. Double post, sry
     
  4. bradleyland

    bradleyland Hardcore Simmer

    Just a heads up, I don't see the other :)
     
  5. svenvangent

    svenvangent Alien

    He must be more caution when driving behind you , yes it is all about racing but without crashing in to someone to pass his big fault nothing to worry .
     
  6. Ähm, I don't understand the forums sometimes :)

    My opinion about this is that it really is a no-no-no to perform a revenge wreck. I absolutely have zero tolerance for this, whatever happened before.
     
  7. bradleyland

    bradleyland Hardcore Simmer

    I agree with you. I had no reason to even admit to that, other than to be honest and make the point that it is always a bad decision (especially because you can't be sure what happened from the other person's perspective). I knew that when I did it, but my anger overcame my reason. This is always a mistake.
     
    AZT B Tender likes this.
  8. Grijo

    Grijo Simracer

    This already happened with me, in both ways. One time I bumped the front car in exactly same situation: I guessed that the pilot in front of me would be capable to make a curve at the same speed as me, but he didn't. He spun. What I did? When I entered a straight part of the track, I slowed down the car, lost various positions until he passed me and foot down again. I could not fix what I did but at least I gave him the front position again. Mistakes will happen, we're all human. Recognize your mistake, be clean as possible, and other persons will always believe when you say "Was not my fault".

    When I was in front and that happened to me, the other guy simply gone...I felt the will to do the same as @bradleyland but I didn't did...I understand him, it sucks when you do the right thing and the other not...
     
  9. bradleyland

    bradleyland Hardcore Simmer

    I do the same if I cause an incident. I will not drive away from a wreck that I caused.

    I can't wait to see what the penalty system SMS is putting in to ProjectCARS 2 looks like. I feel like multi-player sim racing is the wild west right now. Courteous players are being taken advantage of. If someone walks up to me and shoves me while I'm standing in line at a restaurant, what would I do? I can tell you that I would not just stand there. Yet, in online MP, racers can be bullies all day long and there is no recourse. It sucks.
     
  10. Wergilius

    Wergilius Simracer

    Enter any of the leagues available and you will have an overall better online experience, I do enter ordinary online as races as well but then you have to take it for what it is.
    For most leagues (at least the one I attend) their is no problem just entering a few races.

    PLP app in minimum for most leagues, there are several other apps as well but I only enter the ones where PLP is the only mandatory (to keep it as simple as possible)

    Regarding spinning someone, some leagues have an "wait and give back position within 1 lap role or get post penalty" or an "drive thru or get post penalty" rule,
    I prefer the drive thru rule since that also reassembles an "real race penalty", waiting on track if done wrong, have an potential for another incident.


    Regarding you mention:
    • The driver behind did not have position (his bumper was no where near my door)
    This is very dependent of the experience from the other ones perspective, according to "real" racing rules in my country you own the right to your lane
    if you 1mm (0.04inch) within the other cars boundary and both cars must keep their lane, either have the right to the racing line.

    The bumper/door rule was dropped like 10 years ago but it has come to my understanding that for sure seems to be the rule for many race drives online.

    Edit, sorry did not notice console, maybe leagues are not an option?
     
  11. I've seen people spin in front of me for seemingly no reason before, and now I'm questioning whether or not I caused it. There was no contact on my end, but now I wonder what they saw and felt on their end.
     
  12. bradleyland

    bradleyland Hardcore Simmer

    Regarding the contact and who was where, I kind of figured this topic would come up when I mentioned position. The trouble is that when racing online, you don't have spotters. With AC on console, we have even more limited options (no plug-ins). We get a red arrow pointing in the direction of a car that is in your vicinity. Below is a screenshot of the moment of contact. You can see the arrow is pointing to somewhere around the 5 o'clock position, and the other driver is still very much visible in my rear-view mirror. The definitely contact came from the rear. As he tried to run the over-under, he clipped my right-rear.

    I'm really struggling to believe his claim that there was no contact indicated on his side. He refused to provide video, instead insisting that the lack of a damage indicator meant there was no contact. His assertion is that the incident was due to bad netcode, and that the hit only registered on my side. I have no idea if that's even possible. I know that I have had contact that didn't result in a damage indicator before.

    [​IMG]

    Any set of rules that would give the guy in the back the "right of way" would basically dictate that I must let him pass. If that's the case, then why race on the circuit at the same time? Why defend at all?

    IMO, most series did away with the bumper/door rule so they would have great latitude in withholding penalties. In order for racing to survive, they need sponsors, sponsors want viewers, and the majority of viewers don't care about clean racing. They want to see people trading paint. The bumper/door rule bound the marshals to handing out penalties, and this discouraged risky passes. That's bad for viewership, because at least a portion of the folks show up to see dirty racing/wrecks. My Facebook feed was full of *****s who thought the Indy Car race at Texas Motor Speedway was "so awesome" and "OMG, road courses suck... we want more of this!" It's just absurd.

    Anyway, that was a massive digression. I think that in online racing, things are rough enough as it is. Some of this is simply due to lack of skill (close racing requires a lot of skill), and due to the fact that the other guy can't show up at your pit stall ready to kick your ***. I like to squeeze out an aggressive pass as much as the next guy, but if I'm not at least close to the guy's door, I'll back out before causing an incident.
     
    AZT B Tender, svenvangent and Grijo like this.
  13. bradleyland

    bradleyland Hardcore Simmer

    I had the same exact thought. I've also been spun, sent someone a message with a "thanks for the spin" nastygram, and received a barrage of messages insisting that they never touched me. I never went through the trouble to actually download and send the video to anyone. I just figured they were being jerks.

    I really wonder if it's possible for one player to register a collision and the other not. I always kind of assumed that one of the benefit's of AC's central server model was to act as a central authority on things like collision detection.
     
  14. Wergilius

    Wergilius Simracer

    I agree that your pic and the lack of vision together with no 3rd party apps for the console, makes it difficult to locate the other car and it sure looked ok.

    You get a bit spoiled on the PC running triples and apps like helicorsa, nothing to blame than yourself ;)
     
    AZT B Tender and bradleyland like this.
  15. M.K.L.S.P.

    M.K.L.S.P. Rookie

    I honestly have to say I can somewhat see both perspectives from this. But at the same time there is no way that he didn't hit you. And the fact that he won't provide a video kinda proves that. It's definitely could be netcode as well, but I don't think that's the cause. To be fair that has happened to me a couple times and it's very frustrating cause your just trying to race clean and have some fun and some guy somehow hits u and he keeps going. It's honestly not fair. That's why it's a struggle for me to find racers that race clean and actually know how to drive :) haha but for real it could be either way.

    Now of course I do not agree at all with taking the guy out from anger, I understand completely why and it's tempting for me to do that sometimes. I just hope that this is a learning lesson for everyone when it comes to not only racing as a whole but for the AC community in general. I certainly now have to be careful when fighting close with someone. Definitely good to know.
     
    bradleyland likes this.
  16. bradleyland

    bradleyland Hardcore Simmer

    Yeah, and to make matters worse, it didn't look like an egregious hit. In the moment, it absolutely did. I thought, "No way that was an accident. It was too perfect." Now I'm certain it was an accident and I'm really mad at myself for losing my cool.
     
  17. Tomcul

    Tomcul Hardcore Simmer

    For sure it was an accident and it stemmed from blocking/defending moves as usual, if the guy spun and was able catch you up again then it's obvious he's faster than you around the track, so why block him? 5/10 times this causes crashes, you were better off to concentrate on your apex's and exits, eyes front forget the mirror because no doubt it's the mirror that caused you to miss your braking point..

    And the revenge wreck would get you kicked/banned from any moderated pc server..

    But the these things happen in online races best to try and learn something from it and move on there's always another race about to start!

    Just my 2cents.....
     
    Pip_-72- and morpwr69 like this.
  18. bradleyland

    bradleyland Hardcore Simmer

    My driving was not blocking. Not in the racing sense. I did not alter my line in reaction to the guy behind me. As usual SAFEisFAST provides a great resource.



    I agree with your other points, but racing does not include letting someone else pass, and defending against someone who is on the same lap, and is behind you because they spun, does not constitute blocking.
     
  19. AndyB16

    AndyB16 Simracer

    I can't speak for Assetto, but it definitely happens in online racing. A friend and I were playing Forza Horizon 3 (I know, not a sim, but same concept in this case). I brushed his rear bumper 50m before a turn, halfway through the turn he smacks the wall and goes sailing through the air. Laughing and calling me names the whole time.

    On his end, I broadsided him hard, halfway through the turn. On my end, I was a good 3 car lengths behind him when he went off. I happened to have recorded it because it wad funny how high in the air he went, so I showed it to him. It was way off of What happened on his end.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2017
    bradleyland likes this.
  20. bradleyland

    bradleyland Hardcore Simmer

    Yeah, I keep going back and forth on it.

    From a rational, software programming perspective, I can see the challenge that Kunos faces. For any given player, there might be up to 15 cars on the circuit whose updated position and vector is received at an interval. In the milliseconds in between updates, how do you interpolate where the car will be? The answer to this question is really obvious when you see someone with a crazy high ping bouncing around the track like their car is possessed. The game uses a predictive path algorithm, and no algo that involves prediction is perfect; not even the most well researched, highest funded predictive software works 100% of the time.

    So my rational side sees it perfectly. Then there's the hot-headed racer side... :D It's harder to convince him of these things.
     
    AndyB16 likes this.
  21. Tomcul

    Tomcul Hardcore Simmer

    Your defensive late braking into the corner caused you to have a poor exit and late to get back on the power allowing him a chance to try the crossover, if you didn't defend and got on with your own race the crossover probably wasn't going to be an option.

    I'm not saying you shouldn't defend but usually defending only costs both party's time, better sometimes to let him pass and apply pressure to him who knows he may crack easily under pressure..

    Either way poo happens was simply a racing incident.
     
    AndyB16 likes this.

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