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Racing Rigs & Direct Drive Wheels – Question of Stability?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat Room' started by Berniyh, Aug 5, 2016.

  1. Berniyh

    Berniyh Alien

    So for the first time during my sim racing "carrier", I'm thinking about actually buying/building a cockpit.
    The main motivation is that I want to upgrade to a direct drive wheel sooner or later and that I want to install a handbrake.
    The GT3 v2 served me very well and still works well, but I'm getting annoyed by it's slow turning speed, which spoils the drifting fun in AC a bit.
    (And a couple of other things as well.)
    Didn't decide yet if it's going to be the AccuForce or the OSW, but likely one of those two.

    So I looked at a couple of options for a cockpit and the one I like most is the RSeat N1, especially in the Alcantara edition (like Alcantara a lot, my GT3 wheel feels great even after those many hours of racing).
    Since I'm not that tall but often want to give friends a try (no they're not going to race online ;))and also, I want to use the rig both for racing and for flight sims (own a Warthog and Saitek combat rudder pedals), adaptability is definitely a bonus point.
    With the N1, I think I could slide the seat back and place the pedals behind the racing pedals.
    Sure, they won't be fixed, but that's not that critical. It's not really different from what I do right now and it works. ;)
    (For the HOTAS, I'd build a small desk myself or I'll get a small wheel stand that'd fit in between. I'm sure I get something working.)
    But the N1 is huuuuuuuuuuge (and expensive).

    Still, the NLR GT Ultimate looks interesting as an alternative.
    Mainly because the front part can fold away and if you own both the flight and the wheel stand, you might swap them out depending on what you do.

    However with the NLR stuff as well as the RS1 (don't like that the pedals don't slide), I wasn't sure about the stability of the thing.
    Also the case for some of the other rigs.
    Are they capable to withstand the weight and heavy forces of a direct drive wheel?

    Does anyone have experience with the NLR stuff?
    Is it worth a try?

    Other cockpits I had a look at but I'm not sure about:
    Most of these have limited possibilities for adjustments or you need to loosen screws to do so. So I'm not sure.

    So my requirements are:
    - Stable enough to hold either an AccuForce or an OSW
    - Shifter & Handbrake mount possible close to the wheel, not the seat (rally style)
    - Sliding seat

    Bonus points:
    - Sliding pedals
    - Mount for button box(es)
    - Wheel angle adjustable (could be solved otherwise)

    Not required:
    - Keyboard/Mouse mount
    - Seq. shifter mount
    - Monitor stand (not sure yet what I'm going to do but it's going to be separate)

    Opinions or ideas on this?

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  3. esox71

    esox71 Alien

    Search all of the above for reviews?
  4. Berniyh

    Berniyh Alien

    Yeah, on it, but not that many people use a direct drive wheel. That's mainly what I'm on about.
    Is stability of the rig a problem or not?

    If not, that would make things a lot more easy.
  5. Berniyh

    Berniyh Alien

  6. Dean Ogurek

    Dean Ogurek Alien

    Any single tube design to hold the steering wheel is going to have some flex unless, it's really, really heavy-duty. Of course, if you find a rig that fits all your needs but, the steering mount isn't very robust, perhaps some modifications made to reinforce it would be worth your while.

    Ideally, you want a strong 2-point steering mount structure or better.
  7. Berniyh

    Berniyh Alien

    Yeah, that's why I was unsure about the RS1.
    (BTW, was wrong about the non-slidable pedals, they do, but not as much as the N1.)

    But seems with that one it's at least not a huge problem.
    A rig that fixes the wheel from two sides is likely to be a better choice. That's why to me the N1 looked more interesting.
    Also, the shifter mount is a bit higher.

    Couldn't find a review or post about the GT Ultimate in combination with a DD wheel yet, but to me it doesn't look that stable.
    It's more for the G25/G27 kind of wheel, I guess.
    Thanks, I'll have a deeper look at that tomorrow.

    Al profiles seem to be a common choice and one of the easiest ways to build a rig.
    Apart from not having a saw to cut them, I could possibly even build one myself. Not the DIY-kind of guy, though.

    ANiMESoKAR Racer

    I think these are videos are great if you're in the market for a DD wheel:

    I'm in the process of upgrading to a OSW with Small Mige from a Fanatec CSW V2. From all the research I've done the Small Mige is the best you can get for the money and more expensive motors just aren't worth the cost compared to the performance of the Small Mige. Unfortunately there is a bit of negative feedback about the AccuForce wheel which is a real shame as I love my SimXperience Stage IV and would feel naked driving without it now!

    On that note, if you've got the money and building a cockpit definitely invest in 3 DOF! It's that good!
  9. Berniyh

    Berniyh Alien

    Thanks, I've already seen all of those. ;)

    Regarding the first video, it should be said though, that the presented OSW isn't really a "standard" model (well, I mean the kits you can buy).
    I've looked up the motor they're using and that alone costs more than the AccuForce.
    Thus, while the comparison is great, to me it lacks the OSW in a more basic version, like you can order as a kit.
    It's really a comparison at a very high level, keep that in mind.

    Edit: In case you're interested:
    They used the Koll Morgen AKM53G. Current price on this website: 1599€
    And that's only the motor which features 30nm torgue.

    What I don't like about the AccuForce is the flexing in the wheel and the button box looks horrible.
    But since I'm planing to buy a CSW Formula rim + another rim (possibly the BMW GT2 rim from Fanatec), I think I would only order the DIY kit + quick releases, not the wheel.

    The Rexing formula rim looks very interesting as well, but it's hugely expensive (comes with clutch paddles though) and I think that two converted Fanatecs would be easier to handle as you don't have to swap controller profiles.
    You mean like a motion simulator?
    No way, too expensive and I don't have the space.

    I'll buy a new wheel, a handbrake and possibly a rig and that's it.
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2016
    ANiMESoKAR likes this.
  10. ANiMESoKAR

    ANiMESoKAR Racer

    That's fair enough about a motion rig, they do take up a bit of space ;) If it's a cost issue though, you can make your own quite cheap these days but you'll need to be handy with tools. PM me if you want more info on building your own, but I'm sure you've already been on the forums of a certain site with plenty of plans and info :)

    I can't justify the price of a Kollmorgen or Lenze over a Small Mige just for a small amount of "smoother feeling/delivery". Unless you're drowning in cash the general consensus is the performance doesn't outweigh the cost.

    I already own the CSW BMW GT & Formula rim and will be converting them over to use on an OSW wheel! They are great rims :D
  11. grat

    grat Simracer

    I have asked about OSW and GT Ultimate cockpit to Brett at HRS and he told me the rig would need to be improved quite a bit to withstand the forces and not flex.
  12. hazardic

    hazardic Alien

    oh come oon. i certainly agree with you about the cost of any industrial motion sim. but don't reject this on you, this is worth it as far as you decide to get dd-wheel. You can always go a diy way, like Nick Moxley http://www.assettocorsa.net/forum/index.php?threads/static-to-motion-moxleys-way-2dof-to-3dof.17369/ or me. I was always dreamed about the motion rig but was limited by a) cost - $3500 for simxperience 2dof is too much for me and b) free space. So diy way lets get all this amazing stuff with low cost and small amount of space - now i race with cv1 and dd wheel and i'm very happy! If you don't wanna to do something by your own because of the lack of free time (exactly my situation) you can always consider purchasing a ready to go diy product:D overall the cost of my 2dof is absolutely ridiculous
  13. grat

    grat Simracer

    For people like me the problem seems to be that these "ready to go DYI product" is but a myth you never really find---for sure living in Australia does not help... but still.
  14. hazardic

    hazardic Alien

    no offence, but.. did you even try to search?:D here are so many offers that if i don't find my solution i will definitely go to another :D https://www.xsimulator.net/community/forums/commercial-simulators-and-peripherie.52/
    to summarise the person who really want it will get it:)
    grat and ANiMESoKAR like this.
  15. grat

    grat Simracer

    Thank for the link. I personally really love your setup (I remember seen your videos when you got the cv1). The first problem for me is to add import taxes in Australia for anything above 1000AUD. That basically makes the Accuforce 50% more expensive. Then comes me being completely useless with tools and welding and whatever. How easy was it for you to put together your rig? (maybe I should PM you?)
  16. Berniyh

    Berniyh Alien

    As I said, I'm not the DIY type of person.
    I could do it, if I really had to, but right now I don't see this happening.
    I will however have a look at some sites and see if I can take precautions to take an upgrade into account (thus not having to change too much later on).
    That's what I meant.

    However, regarding FFB that's the criticism they have for the AccuForce over at SimRacingGarage.
    With the normal motors, I doubt there is a big difference between the AccuForce and the OSW.
    I like the quick release system of the AccuForce, but I guess the ones most people get for the OSW are similarly good.

    The only thing that would bias me toward the OSW is drifting. I found this quite impressive:

    Watch the easiness with which the wheel turns, the response to the rear going around seems to be almost instant.

    For the AF, I have only seen an LFS drifting video yet and why that was promising as well, it wasn't as impressive as this one.
    Same here:

    Indeed. And the CSW Formula rims look very good from an ergonomic point of view as well.

    This looks very nice, though as well. I will ask him about a price of something similar and I'm hoping that such a variant without shifting leds, display and other stuff I don't need won't be too expensive.

    Main reason being that I would love to have 2-3 rotary encoders on the wheel as well as a clutch paddle.

    I'm not going to buy a rig tomorrow, it's still a bit of a way to get there, mostly because of the time involved I don't have right now for various reasons.
    Thus, I will have a look at DIY kits and see if I can realistically integrate them, but right now, I don't see this going to happen.
    And actually, I would rather upgrade on other areas, like getting a Vive, although I'm tempted to wait for v2 here.
    ANiMESoKAR likes this.
  17. Berniyh

    Berniyh Alien

    Thanks for the info, so the GT Ultimate is out of the race, literally.

    Building your own rig using aluminum elements seems to be the cheapest and possibly most solid way.
    So far, the most solid commercial rig not using those seems to be the RSeat N1, but that's hugely expensive and also quite large.
  18. mark7

    mark7 Rookie

    Berniyh, google the Motedis Alu Rigs definately the cheapest pre cut rigs available.
    Using one with the Bodnar Simsteering Setup and plenty strong enough.
  19. Nick Moxley

    Nick Moxley Alien

    Anyone converting their Fanatec's for OSW use. DO NOT pay what Bodnar wants for his Conversion chip, its a rip off for what it really is.

    Teensy LC is what your after. 1/5 the price and does the exact same thing.


    Nahkamarakatti and ANiMESoKAR like this.
  20. Berniyh

    Berniyh Alien

    Thanks, looks interesting. Al profile seems to be the way to go for. Even though they are incredibly ugly, but that's not the point. :D

    One that looks very interesting is the Sim Rig GT, but that's above 900€ without seat, so I don't know.
    Looks incredibly stable, though and features fast-adjustable sliders for seat and pedals, which is great.

    @Nick Moxley: Thanks for that as well.

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