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Should Kunos drop Unreal?

Discussion in 'ACC General Discussions' started by warth0g, Sep 8, 2019.

  1. Rudski

    Rudski Alien

    The whole point here is nothing was refined. Original doom was not refined to the product we have now. Totally new technology, the group of people who built todays Doom based it on none of the technology that was used in original doom (possibly mouse use in an FPS, if you want to be a stickler?), except the marketing. As far as the current Doom team is concerned, original Doom never existed. The product you see today is based on totally new tech.
    Example of refinement would be something like this, the Ford engine used 40 years ago has been slowly refined to the product we have today, sure, if you directly compare something from the 1940's and todays engine they would look alien, but with perspective, that engine from the 1920's has been slowly refined, year by year to the product you see today.

    edit: maybe my examples suck, I guess you could argue it both ways, in a way...
    Lord Kunos likes this.
  2. Serge M

    Serge M Alien

    Refined is probably not the best word, over a time line that long there’s nothing of the original left but it didn’t get there overnight.
    V1 starts, V2 built on it with lessons learned from v1 and some things cary over and get improved, V3 builds from V2, etc, etc.. By the time you get a fair few years and versions down the road there’s nothing from the original left in the latest, but it doesn’t make the original or any versions in between any less significant.
  3. Pulley

    Pulley Simracer

    Longer than that then as Epic were working on Unreal (engine) for at least three years prior to the games release, i know, i was there ;)

    Edit: "Sweeney began writing the engine in 1995 for the production of a game that would later become a first-person shooter known as Unreal."
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
    SylverFyre, bgil66, GCCRacer and 3 others like this.
  4. Metzger

    Metzger Racer

    But you and all Kunos team likely learned a lot from netKar, which helped in creating AC, which lead to ACC and Kunos knows what will be the next gem :)
    In any case, you know best what to do in the future, so not sure how usable such threads are anyway :)
  5. Turk

    Turk Alien

    I have the knowledge to make a cake, that doesn't mean I'll make a good cake or that it's even worth the effort when I can buy a cake I know is good in the shop for half the price it would cost me to just buy the ingredients.

    Businesses are always outsourcing to other companies that have more expertise or experience in a particular field. It's daunting to face challenges you haven't really faced before, and then have to bet the farm on something your not sure on. Kunos have moved on a lot from the days of NetKar, they have new customers with different demands. They made the smartest move they could make at the time, it wasn't a complete win, but it wasn't a complete disaster either. They still made one hell of a sim.

    Even with the shortfalls I don't think they made the wrong decision, it was probably the right move at the time and it may still be the right move, we're really in no position to say either way.
    Perell0ne, aotto1977, warth0g and 4 others like this.
  6. Oblit0r

    Oblit0r Hardcore Simmer

    We've seen with AC1 that Kunos can make a good cake.

    I've read comments from Aris where he mentions they want to push simulation further. If you're stuck with an engine that, in some ways, limits your capabilities of doing so, why stick with it?

    Like Marco mentioned in the interview, they don't only want to create a product, they want to create technology aswell. I think Kunos has proven already that they're capable of pushing the limits of race-simulation. Why should they limit themselves to the use of a 3rd party engine, meaning some aspects of what can be accomplished is out of their hands?

    I personally don't mind UE, on my computer it runs fairly decent and it looks amazing, but mainly the driving experience is what makes ACC outstanding in my opinion.
    I just hope they take the liberty to basically start from scratch with a new, self-designed engine of which they have full control and doesn't limit their capabilities.
  7. Thug

    Thug Simracer

    I think we would all like that, but how long would it take to get to this standard?
    Unreal has taken a LOT of years to get where it is now and its still not perfect (according to some), so don't expect Kunos to get to something better than Unreal within a year or 10.

    On a side note, the original Unreal game scared the pants off me, that part when the lights went off one by on in corridor.
  8. Lord Kunos

    Lord Kunos His master's voice. Staff Member KS Dev Team

    why stop there?

    It started when Sweeney went for the first time to primary school to learn about summing 2 numbers.
    SylverFyre, Tim Larsen, rycil and 8 others like this.
  9. tlsmikey

    tlsmikey Racer

    The drawbacks for the moment in UE4 are as follows:

    -Triple Screen support
    -Shadow popping in/out near car (something madness engine had as well)
    -Heavy performance requirements (mirrors take a lot of HP and still look terrible)
    -VR clarity (i blame the TAA for this, but perhaps there are other factors)
    -Distance clarity (TAA?)

    Right now it's the only major sim title that doesn't support triples and that has a really poor VR experience either due to performance requirements or clarity (for me it's the clarity that bothers me). If those things aren't resolved shortly, I think Kunos should consider moving on. We can argue that triples and VR are niche but it's a requirement for the high end sim enthusiast crowd that goes beyond a basic single screen and G27 wheel.
    Fear and Psit like this.
  10. Pulley

    Pulley Simracer

    Haha :D
  11. Turk

    Turk Alien

    I would imagine its for the same reason any company makes any decision, money. I'd imagine tweaking off the shelf software is considerably cheaper than making something from scratch. It could be that it allowed them to focus mostly on physics and gaming mechanics. Maybe they will come out of ACC and feel like they can focus less on physics and game mechanics in the future because they've done the hard work in ACC, so can now focus on doing their own version of what UE did for them. But look at how long it took to make ACC even with UE reducing their work load, if they have to include programming the graphics engine too it's going to require more work hours.

    It nearly always comes down to money in the end, that dictates what you can and can't do.
  12. esox71

    esox71 Alien

    You don't need VR to see what a blurry mess some games are nowadays.
    I need absolute clarity on any screen, nevermind VR, that I gave up on due to it not being clear enough even on none blurry games, so UE must be unplayable for VR.
  13. Turk

    Turk Alien

    It's not. I'm on a 1070 card and I can get it to run between 45 and 90FPS. It's not great looking but it's playable. The replays don't look good though, lots of ghosting and what seams like missed frames.
  14. Oblit0r

    Oblit0r Hardcore Simmer

    I don't know if you saw the interview with Marco, but he said they aren't sure if they will continue using UE because they want to create not only products but also technology. If he thinks they can do it, money probably isn't the issue holding them back.
    Ace Pumpkin likes this.
  15. isma_c_r

    isma_c_r Gamer

    All this complicate journey was worthy just with the astonishing rain system, with the track getting more and more water and how the tyres interact with it, the threads that cars create, how the track gets dry and how all this put together implies for strategy, driving, setups...

    In my country we would say "you're complaints are pure vice". This is a hell of a simulator, with all its good and bad things. I can't wait for Kunos to deploy all this ACC in an AC2, with street cars, all the know-how the have gained and stuff.

    I would pay whatever they ask. But please, guys stick to market traditional prices ;)
    aotto1977, Thug, cooknn and 1 other person like this.
  16. manuel_rendo

    manuel_rendo Racer

    I have a gtx 1070..and i78700..i have 45 fps,not perfect but playable, with SS 150 and 140 ppd,put it is the lack of sharpness compared with Ac1,iracing,rf2 what it bothers me,the how bad is Antialiasing implemented in Ue&acc due to the limitations with Ue and the blurriness as well even on 1080 p single screen.,
    I can see kunos works hard. to improve but perhaps they have already seen that no matter how hard they work
    There is little room for improvement,hence the comments of Marco in the interview..wether to continue with Ue or not..
    For a niche so specific as Acc only the outstanding makes sense,and if that it is not practical to achieve with a 3rd party,
    Then develop your own one..or at least is what i have understood.

    Oblit0r likes this.
  17. chksix

    chksix Simracer

    I remember the original Unreal on the mac :)
  18. chavalot

    chavalot Rookie

    Evolution is vulkan.
  19. warth0g

    warth0g Simracer

    I guess it doesn't matter if they choose to stick with Unreal or go their own way, as long as Kunos continue what they started with ACC. Maybe it's their artists rather than the tech which make ACC look so incredible, in which case it wouldn't matter so much - but i think it's both.

    On a single screen with a decent machine, ACC is beautiful and convincingly realistic. For the minority on triples or VR, I sympathize - but I hope that a minority doesn't kill the sim. Triples seem to me to be on the way out. I'm almost certain that they'll disappear in time, to be replaced by ultrawides or VR. And VR is still very new - it's badly optimized on the current generation of hardware - but it's probably the future. That means that Unreal will, I would have thought, evolve to support it better than it does now. So it makes sense to stay the course and stick with UE.

    One way or another, as one of the lucky ones for whom it runs perfectly, I want the ACC experiment to continue. I had a one hour race with 15 guys yesterday around Spa in the most realistic wet conditions of any sim, bar none. It was incredible and the absolute best racing of my 20+ years sim-racing life.
  20. GCCRacer

    GCCRacer Racer

    I suppose as others have said the appeal is being able to license out your engine and thus getting paid for the development efforts in a roundabout way. I.e., the difference of being a studio that creates games versus being a company that enables other studios to create games. Well, that's at least the message I personally would take home from Marco's saying "they want to create technology".
    Kunos as a studio seems to have a pretty top position as far as physics and AI go these days, so sticking with UE means they can't market this knowledge to anyone else.
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