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Slipstreaming correctly

Discussion in 'Chit Chat Room' started by mantasisg 2, Jan 16, 2018.

  1. mantasisg 2

    mantasisg 2 Alien

    Recently I had lots of trouble with people exiting slipstream too late. I thought is there really any advantage to stay in slipstream till absolutely last moment ? I mean wouldn't be actually a faster way to exit slipstream with less steering input, thus slightly earlier, while at the same time avoiding risk to ruin others race ? Also does slip stream only work directly behind other car, or it spreads a bit in shape of a cone ?

    [​IMG]
     
    cerebralvortex likes this.

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  3. chksix

    chksix Simracer

    I imagine it looks like the wake after a ship. Turbulent air straight behind the car. Then there's the bow shock which will make it harder to pass. Delaying the pass until both are in the braking zone will lessen the effect of the bow shock.
     
  4. Try some tests in AC - just watch the AP (air pressure) value drop in the Physics App when driving less than 0.5s behind an opponent.

    Set the AI to something really low so you an easily drive close behind without much effort and take note of what you see.

    Last time I checked I noticed the 'slipstream' effect gain all the way up to you being almost side by side with the car in front, though I can't remember what happened when you moved to the side - ie is it a cone shape or just an infinite width.
     
    mantasisg 2 and Tberg like this.
  5. Tberg

    Tberg Alien

    I don't know how slipstream in AC works or look, but I know how I utilize it while racing. As the effect will wear off as you leave the area, you get more speed by staying behind till last moment.
    Of cause, you have to look ahead, maybe you don't have time to stay that long before a corner comes up. Maybe you need that downforce to brake late, passing your opponent, but if you stay behind him and wait till last moment, you'll miss the apex totally, fly off the track at worst.
    There's no absolute advantage of slipstream by staying behind till last moment, it depends as much as everything else in racing, by the situation. When you've tried situations like this over and over, eventually you know what to do without thinking. You evaluate instantly, take a decision and go for it. Then you need guts to dare driving like that. Rookies will either back off in fear of failing or they'll overshoot by a mile and fail, even take someone out. Seasoned simmers, meself included, can stay bumper to bumper while still pay attention to when and how the driver ahead brakes for a corner and take advantage if there is any.
    Anyway....would be nice knowing about the 'shape' or zone of the slipstream (@Aristotelis?) just for fun, but for practical use you just know when it is there or not. It becomes a fluid moment of motion, rather than "ok, I'm about to enter/leave his slipstream in 3...2...1").
     
  6. Whilst I don't know the 'shape' of the zone, from testing it seems the only come into effect when you are 0.5s or less than the car ahead.

    This means at say 200mph you will begin to feel the slipstream effect at around 45m behind. The slower you are driving, the smaller this maximum distance gets, for example at 100mph you need to be 22m behind.

    "ok, I'm about to enter/leave his slipstream in 3...2...1"

    So yeah, you can do this^ :p Just watch your delta, at 0.6s its nothing, 0.5s it starts.
     
    Neilski and Tberg like this.
  7. mantasisg 2

    mantasisg 2 Alien

    Yesterday we had half awesome arace in LeMans track, with Porsche 935/78. I didn't notice much disadvantage of moving out of slipstream early, maybe even advantage, because of less steering input needed. And moving out of slip stream the last moment requires rough steering input, which IMO is not very good at great speeds.
     
  8. This is what I seem to remember, but it was so long ago I'm not sure. I got the sense that if you were either 0.1s behind the car directly or 0.1s behind the car but off to the side - the effect was the same, but I'm really not sure without testing it again.
     
    mantasisg 2 likes this.
  9. martcerv

    martcerv Alien

    At Nords in a slower car its sometimes best to even lift off a little and stay in the stream to make a pass just before the corner at the end of dottinger hohe, otherwise if you do it too early the car will be able to slipstream you back lol.

    Really though if you rear end someone while exiting the tow its about the silliest error you can make, the next dumbest error you can make is to stay directly behind the car and then try to out brake them. Obviously if you dont pull out of line then braking later simply means you rear end the car and both are pretty big errors on that guys part. You would hope nobody makes that sort of error more then once but then some people dont understand that the idea is to go around as through doesnt work as well when trying to make a move. :rolleyes:
     
    mantasisg 2 likes this.
  10. Tberg

    Tberg Alien

    That could be connected to downforce at highspeed tracks with a wing like that on the 935/78, but I wouldn't know for sure. Traction will change in a splitsecond, rather than gradually if moving slowly out earlier.
     
  11. mantasisg 2

    mantasisg 2 Alien

    @martcerv Yes, exactly that was going on yesterday. I was with damage, and car behind me probably too. Slipstreamed, and passed me. And because the straight is very long, I was able to slipstream my position back just before the kink in LeMans :D It was quite exciting.

    And I agree about that bumping into someone while slipstreaming is one of the most stupid errors. Thats why sometimes I question if it was incompetence, noob error, or actual action on purpose to eliminate opposition.

    There was one interesting thing about going on highspeeds with Moby Dick yesterday. Cars seemed to slightly move back and forth randomly, even when driving on top gear flat out. I thought that slipstreaming in closer distance than ~two car lengths at those speeds would have been rather bad idea. I wonder was it caused by other guy having inconsistent throttle input, the way car delivers power on top range, or maybe even network lag being noticeable on such speed, while on much lower speed it wouldn't be noticable.... that was weird. I am still unsure what it was, because it seemed like it wasn't happening everytime.


    @Tberg Yeah probably, but I think this more likely could be a thing when moving into the slipstream, especially in turn in point. I remember this was especially an issue with Lotus Exos in Red Bull Ring, loss of grip in slipstream really makes difference.
     
  12. BrandonW77

    BrandonW77 Alien

    You must not watch NASCAR. :D #boogityboogitybumpdraft
     
    Nmoleiro and mantasisg 2 like this.
  13. mantasisg 2

    mantasisg 2 Alien

    Good call lol I was almost able to forget about existance of that thing haha Is it really so bad there ? :D

    Definitely must be a sport where slipstreaming is the whole thing. Worth to explore, here is immediate find. Very interesting, I wonder if this is for all cars like that ? I suppose AC doesn't simulate it ? Does it ? I will pay attention now. Looks like a manouver to scare other driver, but it really is not. Check it:

     
    chksix and Neilski like this.
  14. mantasisg 2

    mantasisg 2 Alien

    What was that, is this some kind of real life glitch:


    :D Thanks for pointing out @BrandonW77

    Ok, after usual yuotuberathon got to know this a bit. Interesting thing, definitely good for both drivers, if they aren't 1st and 2nd. It is a bit mad though.

    But I suppose that in such racing like LeMans it wouldn't make sense first of all because it is endurance race, and this looks quite dangerous.

    So it looks like getting really close is good for both cars to gain proper top speed. But isn't very good for overtaking. Or perhaps it is ? Just slight liftoff, more room to overtake, then side draft and you are in safe lead.

     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
    myimac and chksix like this.
  15. Jake F

    Jake F Gamer

    Except I wouldn't lift. Get as close as possible while in the slipstream, and make your move as late as possible (without stressing the tires). In VR I'm comfortable making my move from just a few feet away, such that my front bumper will clear their rear bumper with about 1 foot of space to spare - but no way would I get that close on a single monitor. Nor would I get that close if the driver in front has been driving erratically or inconsistently; there definitely has to be some trust in their driving ability in order to play it close. Regardless, staying in the slipstream as long as possible is definitely the most beneficial, IMO.

    Not sure how side drafting works in non-aero cars (like road cars, for instance). In iRacing, on ovals, I use it all the time, but not sure how AC has modeled that.
     
  16. chakko

    chakko Alien

    Layman thought: If the real world drivers wait until the last split second to get out of the slipstream, as can be seen in Formula series' for example, if can't be wrong to do so in sims too, if the effect of slipstream is simulated correctly.

    I always do so, and i haven't really noticed a negative effect. Of course, it also depends how close you are to the next corner. I'd definitely exit the slipstream, when the braking zone approaches, already to not rush into the frontrunners back.
     
  17. mantasisg 2

    mantasisg 2 Alien

    Be careful racing like that, tiny network lag, or slightly off colision model of the car, and it is over for someone. I really don't think that there is any benefit to get that close. Unless doing #boogityboogitybumpdraft, which probably doesn't work in AC, probably, never tried.
     
  18. mantasisg 2

    mantasisg 2 Alien

    IRL if they would exit slipstream too late they would brake their front wing, while in AC you'd just damage it, and spin the driver in front, like if the front wing would be extremely stiff and strong to unset whole other car. I suppose it also depends on situation and difference of speeds, the larger the difference of speeds, obviously you'll have to exit slipstream earlier. So I guess we have failed to define this important variable in the beginning of discussion, I think, sorry if someone mentioned that already, could have forgotten it.
     
  19. Btw, in my quick testing I did just now, I get a sense slipstream does work like a proper 'cone' or wake. And I was totally wrong about what I thought was the case earlier - I said pulling alongside a car ahead would still give you the slipstream - this is 100% not the case, you get the full normal air pressure even if it says you are 0.1s behind but alongside.

    Obviously its difficult to drive at a steady speed and map out an accurate picture, but thats what I was feeling from reading the AP value whilst buzzing around some slow transit vans in a fast race car. Off too the side you do lose the slipstream effect, ie it definitely IS more effective to stay tucked in behind for as long as possible.

    0.1s tucked up behind is way more effective in AC than 0.1s behind off to the side.

    Also another cool thing I just noticed is when you get really close, ~0.2s behind you hear a loud turbulent air effect. Never noticed it before, buts its definitely there.

    But don't take my word, do some tests to see for yourselves, its quite interesting.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
    Neilski and mantasisg 2 like this.
  20. chakko

    chakko Alien

    I'm not sure why you assume that i meant to drive up so closely that you'd damage your wing in real life. Typically, even if it seems extremely close, there's still a lot of room, when you watch yourself in a replay. In any case, if you're exiting the slipstream too soon, you will lose time, because you obviously benefit from the lack of air pressure in the slipstream. And while i agree that you shouldn't get too close with the warping going on in AC multiplayer, i haven't really turned around many people so far. ;)

    Anyway, i'll let the pros show how to do it:





    That's pretty close, i would say.
     
    mantasisg 2 likes this.
  21. chksix

    chksix Simracer

    garyjpaterson likes this.

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