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Slower drivers and crashes

Discussion in 'ACC General Discussions' started by John Caetano, Mar 9, 2019.

  1. Minolin

    Minolin Staff Member KS Dev Team

    you guys are so predictable :D
     
  2. bgil66

    bgil66 Alien

    I was behind a guy that was almost at a stand still and wouldn't let me pass weaving back and forth lol. On another lap I was at fault when I got distracted by everything on screen and had some brain fade while an alien closed up so fast we went off
     
  3. John Caetano

    John Caetano Racer

    A lot of good discussion here, thank you!

    So some more detail at least from my point of view. When i say early braking i am referring to 50m or less. On Monza for example i average lap times of 1.51.x which i don’t think are terrible, is it? I do practice hotlapping frequently and learn lines and braking points. But obviously skill takes time and that shouldn’t stop those from entering online play once they have a pretty good understanding of the track. I don’t think I’m one of those.

    How i approach races is depending on how quickly the guy behind me catches up I’ll let them pass unless of course i slipped up just before. When they do approach i stick to my line and defend lightly. But after a few turns if they are constantly on my tail I’ll usually pull aside and slightly blimp off the throttle to allow a pass.

    There’s turns I’m on point, and then there are those where i struggle or hesitate in fear of losing grip but in the end i appreciate everyone’s POV and sounds like it’s not really my fault which I’m glad...
     
  4. Minolin

    Minolin Staff Member KS Dev Team

    Ya then it's not your fault - by rules.

    However, a wise man (= BP driver) once told me he blames himself for any kind of accident - because he's sure there was a version of the situation where he could have avoided the accident independently of who is to blame.
    Now you could argue that this makes more sense in real racing, as there's a different level of seriousness etc - but actually I found going this path is very rewardable especially in simracing: If you always blame yourself, even if it's "why couldn't I avoid this idiot?" - you will find yourself way less angry and frustrated. And it's the next level to become better, and be more successful.

    Personally, I was overly-exploiting "slow in, fast out". If you manage to do perfect exits in MP racing (and have a certain amount of consistency), nobody will overtake you on the next straight. Not even aliens.
    The problem is that this execution needs early braking and overly controlled turn-in, that is the price if you are not an alien who can do everything in perfect execution. And especially in MP the average is not even "late braking", but "too late braking" - this is highly incompatible. So I had to realize that my strategy is nice and effective, but in reality I don't do enough to avoid all the rearends I'm a witness of.

    So my style had to move to something that is more adaptive, and more of a compromise. People (I do not know/trust) behind me will make me focus on good/late braking, with the risk of non-optimal corner exits - but with the gain that I can reduce my accident count.
     
  5. Coanda

    Coanda Alien

    Proposed 2021 rule changes should solve this problem...

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2019
    Timberwind likes this.
  6. henkjansmits

    henkjansmits Simracer

    My suspicion is that there is also a large category of competent racing skill people who's mindset is: "man he is braking early, amateur, let's just shove him out of the way quickly because someone like me cannot afford to lose time stuck behind someone like this". These things might look like accidents but they are not really. Only rating helps here.

    Looking from the other side I find it's not hard to avoid hitting people from behind, even if they break a bit (<50m) early. I generally only hit people accidentally when side by side.

    I think in really close racing these rear end accidents are also sometimes just incidents, with no one to blame. But thats the minority of cases....

    The AC AI is different: it never hits you really from behind but nearly always from side rear, when you indeed change your line in breaking zone.
     
  7. Just did a long multi race and the amount of small little bumps to the rear and cars go flying is unbelievable, something the devs said will be fixed I belive . Like a car on ice when it's touched, ha
     
  8. We are talking about gt3 cars. With abs, any driver should be able to brake consistently and within 10 meters from the an "alien's braking point". Anything more than that and it just means that the driver never really tried to get a braking point for a given turn. Close racing requires consistent braking points more than anything for all drivers. Ideally if the driver behind is close to the car in front, he should brake a quarter of a second before the car in front reaches the braking point. That way the car behind will brake slightly earlier than the car in front, avoiding the "elastic effect" and unwanted contacts. Even if the car brakes slightly earlier, it shouldn't result in a contact. Then of course, general rules are good to understand what to do, but they are never the answer to every situation, so as it has been mentioned here already, a good driver should try to predict the behaviour of the car in front. There are way too many people joining online sessions without having any idea of the braking points for each corner. Learn them, then join. It literally takes 4-5 laps to get a good understanding of the braking points, then practice and proper trailbraking (and setup) can help you shove some meters, but that's it really.
     
  9. mikendrix

    mikendrix Simracer

    That’s the main problem, as in single events I also tend to break early and exit quickly. On races the AI can adapt to my driving but in MP it’s more difficult of course.
     
  10. Default

    Default Racer

    There have been many times when I lap cars and I don't know why they feel the need to re pass me at all cost. Either they dive bomb last second only to wipe us out, or they tuck into my slipstream and attempt to out brake me only to rear end my arse till it lifts off. Some are clearly not ready for MP struggling just to keep it on track and end up spinning in front of you or taking you out together as you try to pass.

    When I'm approaching a slower car for position I lift off throttle before the braking zone to observe. Usually after a few corners you get an idea of their braking points and can plan your pass. Problem is if you're racing in a group you do not have this luxury as it will leave you vulnerable to cars behind and I've been overtaken many times for being too careful about the car in front followed by the domino effect of being constantly off line and being overtaken. That's why sometimes I accidentally rear end slower cars, my bad.
     
    Ricky Reject and mikendrix like this.

  11. This is what I'm talking about.. on t1 earlier, the car in front bogged down, I don't think I could of avoided it, when I went up the back of him I just plowed him off the track like nothing, this is annoying and not very realistic I don't think, happens to everyone all the time. .poor chap to, ha
     
  12. Oblit0r

    Oblit0r Alien

    Definitely avoidable :D You see he goes wide the first part, so his exit will be compromised. You went full throttle into the back of him :p
     
    Dookie, Winston and R. Iván like this.
  13. Maybe if I had reactions of a cat yeah.. Anyway thats not the point. The point is how his car reacts .. Tap a car and off they go into the spinning land of oz
     
  14. Oblit0r

    Oblit0r Alien

    Sorry, I did not read your original post. I definitely agree with what you say about cars going of real easily, to add to that, there's no feeling in FFB whatsoever on certain occasions when touching human players from behind, whereas when touching AI you always get feedback from the wheel. I've made a video about this a while ago:

    Sometimes the cars of human players seem to lack weight.
    And no, I don't go around ramming people for fun, this was for the purpose of this video only to show what I meant.
     
  15. Yeah I agree, and in this video there is loads of touching but no spinning around, cars just being pushed as you'd imagine I guess check 1:45
     
  16. Timberwind

    Timberwind Racer

    I believe these issues with touching cars and spinning has to do with the fact that ACC treats each collision as perfectly elastic. This is likely to be changed in the future unless Kunos wants to risk a witch hunt upon final release. :p
     
  17. John Caetano

    John Caetano Racer

    Yea after a few pointing this out i assume some or all of these incidents could have been related to this but geez from my drivers perspective it felt like they hit me at 100mph+ haha
     
  18. Luatz1

    Luatz1 Racer

    I my humble opinion, I think that there is a huge lack of common sense among a big percentage of the users.

    I've encountered these 3 situations a lot of times:

    1.- you are on your qualifying fast lap, someone comes out from pits, or someone in fron of you spins out and comes back to track, and they just stay in front of you, they don't let you pass.

    2.-I've started a 30mins qualy many times, and I've seen many many many times, groups of 5 drivers starting the fast lap together.... which doesn't make any sense. Also I usually make the out lap quite calm, just making sure that the tires and brakes are green... well... there is always someone who is right behind me trying to dive bomb me, or overtake me at all cost... people can't take things easy, even if it is an outlap.

    3.-lapped cars during a race.... in blancpain you don't need to let the other car pass as in F1, you just don't have to fight for the position, but you see everything nowadays... laped cars divebombing you, laped cars that try to let you pass in the worst corner of the circuit...

    I think that the biggest problem is the lack of common sense / respect for the drivers around you / patience.... call it as you want.

    people just want to overtake in the first turn they have a chance to do so, or be the superhero of turn 1 trying to overtake 10 cars........ which doesn't make any sense, you will have lots of crashes in this way.

    When you are behind a car, you have to lift your pedal before the braking zone, and just stay behind him in a SAFE way, unless you see the overtake 200% clear.

    Analyze them, and once you think you are ready, go for it, always RESPECT each other...that's very important.

    Minolin said something very nice, in any contact, mistake.... recheck what you could've done better, that's a good way to improve your battles.
     
  19. Skybird

    Skybird Alien

    Luatz1, and others,

    what many people here seem to not see is the wide diversity of interests amongst players. Only some players start on a public server and want to run their session "realistically". Many players instead want just some "rolling with the boys", they stick together in groups and try to impress each other with the stunts they pull off.

    You cannot reach the latter with all your well-meant advise on how to be reasonable and "realistic". Its not what they came for.

    The answer is organised, moderated league racing on closed servers. If you are interested in "realistic" track behaviour. On public servers however you will never see anything different than what you see there right now and have seen in the last couple of years.

    Personally I do not care for organise dleagues, and so AI is very important for me since it is the natural alternative. I run a season currently, but do so in Raceroom. AC and ACC I use for more relaxed occasional driving without any motivation to chase for scoring points and final standings. The new rating system and the ambition of ACC's design do not change that (for me at least). In any way, I bypass the online thing completely now. The AI in RR and the way the race goes is what common online race driving should look like. More I cannot ask for.

    One final word: many players seem to think they are good drivers. But that may just be their own perception, based on pure car control. The way you anticipate things unfolding in front of you and yourself preparing and already starting to react to that while you still have time - is also what qualifies oyu as a good driver - or not. To glue your own front bumper to another car in front whose driver you do not know and whose skill and behaviour and habits you therefore do not know, is no competent driving. Plus your selfperception of ypur own skill also may be a bit lets say too optimistic. - LEAVE ROOM for ERRORS and for DIVERSE INTERESTS. And that includes yourself. If you drive in a way that minimises room for errors - yours and that of the others - then that is what you will get: no room for errors. Guess what could, will and must happen sooner or later!
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
  20. Paul Sutton

    Paul Sutton Simracer

    My second attempt at a MP race at Monza was crazy fun first at T1 and T2 there was a pile up :eek: got spun ended up in 8/8 Th place never mind i say 2 myself just keep going and someone is bound to slip up and go off,
    And yup sure enough at the mid point of the 20 min race i found myself in 5th :D.
    I had a ding dong battle with somebody in a Nissan i passed him i missed a corner he passed me next lap visa versa i am on his arse and he makes a mistake and runs of the track and i pass him lol.
    Finally through pure *** i end up in 2nd place with 2 min to go and someone pulls out of the pits behind me he was 3 laps down and i am thinking he is going to punt me off on the last lap and i am going to lose my position thank goodness he had enough sense to not run me off :D.
    All in all a dam fun race. Well done to the Kunos team for all there hard work.
     
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