1. Do you need support for Assetto Corsa Competizione? Please use the proper forum below and ALWAYS zip and attach the WHOLE "Logs" folder in your c:\users\*youruser*\AppData\Local\AC2\Saved. The "AppData" folder is hidden by default, check "Hidden items" in your Windows view properties. If you report a crash, ALWAYS zip and attach the WHOLE "Crashes" folder in the same directory.
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The Dark Side of sim racing- nothing serious

Discussion in 'ACC General Discussions' started by doamf, Mar 28, 2019.

  1. doamf

    doamf Racer

    The dark side of sim-racing*

    What Kunos fails to mention:

    • Heavily addictive
    • More than frustrating
    • Psychological (long term?) impact
    • Anti-social

    Wtf Kunos? Should that not be advertised to warn potential customers? :eek:

    To expand a bit per noted issue:

    Heavily addictive:

    Besides the normal daily chores, ACC is on the mind and forming plans for the day/night regarding its schedule

    More than frustrating:
    I start to doubt my own abilities the longer I play,
    for example: I did a few hundred laps at Monza, yet my best time remains around 1.48.something
    the leaderboard is always in my head and I know it says 1.46.something, literally destroying my pride, bit by bit by bit.:rolleyes:
    I mean, truth be told, these persons occupying the top positions on the leaderboard are modern day digital racers, my respect.

    How to get there, where "they" are?

    Ok, I know the answer: "Stay calm, relaxed, "feel the flow", blah blah": Nope:cool:

    Nah mate: "Fire yourself up, get in the groove, be aggressive, decisive, never doubt...., blah blah": Nope:mad:

    Another thing; having played ACC hundreds of hours, my tip for setups? None.....I kid you not. My fastest lap times, hot stints came with standard setups. o_O

    Does that mean that changes in setup make no sense? Of course they make sense, it’s just my own driving ability and lack of understanding what is the severely limiting factor here.

    Still: why frustrating, you might wonder. Well, all my life I have surrounded myself with all kinds of fast going mechanical objects, most notably motorcycles, so much so that even my son (in my avatar) started (pocket bike) racing when he was 4. That's also about the time that we started to play racing games (with the early emphasis on games) and never stopped really.
    So, I like racing, always did, always will, hence my frustration: I am competitive and it’s hard to accept defeat from the couch....and this realization, regards to Kunos, is not helping my ego.

    Oh, hang on: "its not that important": Minolin said so! "Consistency is the flavor of the day". Sorry Minolin, I know where you coming from, but outright speed is part of my addiction too. (besides winning of course).:(

    Of course I must be realistic about my abilities, but a full 2 seconds of the pace?

    "Everything is in doubt": (when it comes to the elusive fastest lap times:confused:)
    - latency issues
    - FFB
    - my steering wheel getting old
    - my pedals are not good.....(my son says so too :)
    - My shifters are sometimes double shifting
    - triple screen support missing
    - USB bugs
    - stuttering in my screen
    - graphics driver issues
    - conspiracies (is Kunos dynamically influencing the speed of our cars?) Huh, didn't know that, did you?
    - manual vs automatic shifting
    - the use assists such as ideal lines (although they do absolutely nothing to improve my own personal times)

    Forget it.., no improvements, it comes always back: to me <>frustration:p:p:p

    So pumped to play online competitively with ACC: Now I doubt if I even should subscribe to SRO-ESport GT series to compete online...guess where? Monza. Maybe they need a sweeper?:eek:

    Psychological (long term?) impact:

    Must be...surely...?
    As the current version is still in its early release there is of course no documentation available regarding the subject, but it surely imposes a risk to the "general population" and it would interesting to investigate how such a risk could be mitigated. Which department is responsible for psychological impact? Please ensure standards are applied and implemented with at least 3 relevant KPI's to prove to ourselves that we are "on the right track":confused: and to probably keep the insurance happy too.

    Best if I report this as a bug in the forum, at least then I have the added benefit of remaining a reliable and constant source of knowledge or bug finder, whichever prevails.

    Anti-social:

    That’s a given: we are "talking" to our computer screens, or worse: trapped in a VR harness mumbling nonsense to digital adversaries.

    In true tradition, the chatting ability is confined to a minimal sort of twitter like text row/box using no more than 2 characters for a sentence, yes it has its own jargon; where is that in the help file hey Kunos?

    Welcome new user: you illiterate, NOOB: first race I won, somebody texted: "gr".
    wtf? gr? meaning? angry? what for?: F**k you, what’s your problem? "I am not taking **** from anybody son"; until you finally realize that it means great race....go figure :confused:, thanks anyway, oh sorry: "tx":oops:

    (Amazing how some racers can type and set fast laps at the same time, another skill requirement I don't possess)

    Lastly, spouses, partners, friends, children, loved ones.....most of them will "guaranteed" love the fact that we spend only a disproportionate time of our days punishing ourselves with yet more frustration.o_O

    1.46.something......for f**k sake:rolleyes:

    Love racing

    *Disclaimer: This post contains the sole opinion of a satisfied customer who's currently preparing for the next session.
     

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  3. Turk

    Turk Alien

  4. Minolin

    Minolin Staff Member KS Dev Team

    While I appreciate the humor, there is a very true core question involved:

    "They" are the world's fastest simracers driving laps in ACC. Like in any other sports, there are a few maniacs that just have the talent - but more important the dedication.
    You did hundreds of laps? Sweet. They literally did hundred thousands. Also (I guess) they have a significantly different approach on "doing laps", we mortals tend to just repetitively do laps. They practice, in a very focused way.
    They even work out, some do parts or even all of the mental and coordination programs you usually only see in F1 side coverage.

    Our "problem" is that simracing and such a global leaderboard puts everyone on the same spot, and you know it's comparable. Usually, you do not see the unbelievable distance between "good" people in a sports, and the world elite.
    I mean you don't simply do a bit of 100m sprints and see how freaking devastating world champions would annihilate you (visually, in meters).

    But I've learned that practice and focus gets you somewhere. Possibly not to ever set a world record, but if you can close the gap to 2.0 seconds, it's also possible to do another tenth. And another tenth.
    To me, the most important insight talking to aliens was actually the amount of practice and invested efforts - it tells that they wouldn't be as quick when they had "our" levels of experience, and that our talent is only a part of the gap. Which is good news, as there is probably a second to gain for any of us, if we really want to.
     
  5. PLebre

    PLebre Hardcore Simmer

    Didn't read it all, but you get my like.;)
     
  6. GRFOCO

    GRFOCO Alien

    wife, job, daughter, parents, friends, running, rc... where/when i put simracing?
    welcome aboard guy ;)
     
  7. To get right up there, you must be constantly trying to find a better way to drive each corner. I have known monza for many years but I honestly have not spent a huge amount of time on it. Maybe a few hundred laps in my lifetime? When monza came to acc it was the first time I actually gave it a good go and after a few hundred attempts (not even complete laps because many of these attempts end early) I have gotten to a 1:47.2 and I know there is more to be made. I still dont confidently drive the lesmos. When you practice, dont practice driving wrong. Experiment with different entry lines into the corners and find the optimal place to accelerate out the corners. I started turning earlier on the second chicane which gave me a better exit and just like that I was gaining 3 tenths. The second lesmo is my worst corner on the track and i lost over a tenth there on my best lap. Often under driving the car will have better results than over driving.
     
    Minolin likes this.
  8. fnegroni

    fnegroni Racer

    My approach to improve my times (a looong way to go for me still, but getting there) is:

    1) play a fast paced first person shooter to highten the senses. 30 minutes playing an arena death match normally gets me an instant time improvement, obviously less evident the faster I get.

    2) I recently noticed that I hit a sort of wall when I try to set a fast lap time, so I then slow down a little but focus on being smooth again, then my next few laps will be even more consistent and eventually I get past the wall.

    3) another technique that works for me: I try super crazy lines to test the track limits: kerbs, ondulations, car rotation.

    That’s assuming the default setup is correct for the track. Some setup changes are obvious: gearing, brake balance, even TC. Some less so to me: toe in vs out, rear camber, downforce...
     
  9. Jynnantonix

    Jynnantonix Simracer

    doamf gets it, post rating 10/10! :D

    Something that has astonished me, is that after spending some time getting a 'decent' time, then come back to the same car/track combo a week or so later and I just have no idea how I was achieving that time, not like missing it by a couple tenths, but like 2 freaking seconds!

    It really brought home to me how when you feel you've hit a wall, there are still an immeasurable number of ways to improve, you just gotta start getting creative.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2019
    doamf likes this.
  10. D.Jankovic

    D.Jankovic Alien

    This. ^^^
    Purchased AC 2013 in Earlly access
    Tried it with keyboard :D :D i know i know.
    came back to ac around 2016ish
    While game was out for couple of years already guys i started driving with just always left me behind, does not matter how hard i try i always end up spining while trying just to keep up with them.

    2017 and 18 i used a lot of my free time to do AC and to get better and i started catching up to them :D

    Sept. 18
    Acc released i am not comming off the game.. clocked in 400hrs already just doing laps hotlaps etc. In generall just spending more time on the game. These aliens i have been driving with i am finally keeping up with them. Still way off but i can be right behind them finish a race and not spin. Couple days back i even overtook one (but i belive he let me by since i was having better pace) and i started fighting for p1. Amazing feeling. I am happy with my progres and i will just keep driving and practicing. There is no better way.


    I would love if minolin could dig some data from aliens and be like this is how much game time they already have. What car track they run the most. How manny laps they did etc. Would be fun to see.
     
    ignission and Jynnantonix like this.
  11. fnegroni

    fnegroni Racer

    There is that. But there is also the fact that some people are by nature better than others. The 10,000 hours myth is just that. A myth.
    The book ‘The Spots Gene’ provides very good insights into the topic, with way more research into it.
    Accepting to not be as good yet still enjoy the process of finding your own limit is what matters, yes some are aliens because the spend thousands of hours practicing, but I bet some don’t, so we should just not keep beating ourselves up.
     
  12. Minolin

    Minolin Staff Member KS Dev Team

    Sorry, but that is an excuse which won't serve you well. The limit-to-accept has to be 1 ms faster than the fastest comparison you can find.
    Yes, statistically it's unlikely that you are one of the 2, 5, 100 that have the necessary talent - but it'll bring you much closer than an arbitrary feeling of "well, that's my limit I guess (I can stop working harder and harder now)".

    It's also statistically unlikely that you hit your talent limit yet, and more investment wouldn't improve you anymore.
     
    mr Switchblade and Derrellbiffle like this.
  13. Turk

    Turk Alien

    I don't think it's a myth that putting in the 10,000 hours is a necessary part of being at the top of your field. Yes some people have slightly better reactions, or slightly more athletic intelligence, or maybe slightly faster muscles. But everyone has to put in that 10,000 hours. Especially at the top end, there isn't any amount of talent that will make up for hours of practice.
     
  14. Jynnantonix

    Jynnantonix Simracer

    doamf, through trial and error I have found the perfect solution to the problems you describe. Training hard and focused didn't work, reading indepth setup guides didn't work, but the following 2 step process was perfect:
    • Never practise for more than 10 minutes on an upcoming race, just enough so that you can stay on the black stuff
    • When you come home mid to back of the pack, bask in your mediocrity and you can keep telling yourself "Probably would have won if I had practised"
    Sure fire method to keep yourself in a permanent state of blissful delusional thinking!
     
    Racert46 and doamf like this.
  15. fnegroni

    fnegroni Racer

    Read the book. Science versus myth. It covers chess and other sports not just physical but mental.
    Sorry to break it to you.
     
  16. fnegroni

    fnegroni Racer

    Lol

    I don’t say ‘don’t practice’
    I said ‘don’t fall for the myth that it’s all down to practice or lack there of’

    This is actually something athletes who compete at the highest level know already.

    The scientific approach to obtaining results is not self delusion. Sorry.

    I wrote that you must be able to enjoy the process of finding your own limit. Whether that limit is greater than someone else’s is irrelevant to achieving it. Practicing like an alien will not make you an alien.

    I didn’t say ‘don’t try’ I simply stated that if you start comparing yourself and follow a myth you will achieve nothing in finding your real limit.

    I wish you all the best at being the best you can be, I just don’t wish you to go crazy in the process.
    You realise how many people descend into pathological depression because of gaming?
     
  17. Turk

    Turk Alien

    I can't read the book right now but looking at the chapters there's one called "A Tale of Two High Jumpers" which I'm guessing your referring too. One guy is short and spends his life training and wins a competition. Another tall guy comes along in collage and beats the previous guy with a few months of training. The second guy habd the perfect body type for the sport, the first guy had a terrible body shape for the sport, yet he still managed to get to the top level with 10,000 hours of practice. High jumping isn't exactly the most technical sport in the world. Your not going to jump in a car and understand all the complexities of car balance unless someone tells you. You're not going to play a game like Irish hurling without spending years practising how to use the hurl. Your not going to be able to hop on a horse and win at Cheltenham.

    I don't think the book is quite saying what you think it is.
     
  18. Minolin

    Minolin Staff Member KS Dev Team

    And I say: "doesn't matter what the facts are*". I rather let my mind cheat myself by overpronouncing the meaning of the part I can do something about, rather than falling into a trap which hurts my potential. And before you respond "lol you ignore facts", this is an essential mind game, also used by the best athletes in the world. Ever wondered why every single top-driver is truely convinced he's the best and fastest (and never guilty, lol @Bottas)? Because they invest** efforts into developing a mindset that has no limits (but also very little room for excuses). Not because they are too stupid to notice/acknowledge that other drivers are simply better, but because it gives them a better position.

    *don't do that often, but this is a special case
    ** ok not everybody has to work on that attitude, some are just megalomaniacal
     
  19. I'd be very careful with such statements. A technically clean flop(?), which is the standard technique for high jumping requires precise movement of many parts of your body.
    Such things are often underestimated. The golf swing for another example, is one of the most complex movements in sport, but looks quite simple.
     
  20. fnegroni

    fnegroni Racer

    I have read the book and what the book says is not all in one chapter.

    Let’s be clear here: work hard and work smart are not the same thing.
    And in all of that, two factors play an important role: your genetic advantage or disadvantage, and your psychology.

    Let’s say you do practice like an alien. And even if you lack the genetics, get the same results by using other attributes to your advantage.

    At that point, you have achieved ‘a’ goal.
    Now review what it has cost you. The process comes at a cost. Was it worth it? Was it not?

    That’s what matters: if being the best makes you happy, but getting there costed you more than the happiness you gain, you could actually be worse off.

    In conclusion and this is my final point: I’m not posting here to discourage finding your limit, setting yourself goals, and reap the benefits of training hard. I wanted to remind you that the sacrifices made are not always worth it, and gaming can become incredibly addictive, at the expense of your own mental health.
     
  21. fnegroni

    fnegroni Racer

    Yes, your mind can pose a great obstacle in achieving your real limit.

    But I’d be very careful in encouraging that mindset. Certainly not without a professional overseeing the process. Most gamers don’t have access to psychological help as readily as professional athletes. And there is a real risk of developing a culture of delusion.

    I wish ACC to be a very successful game, but I really hope it’s players don’t fall into addiction which unfortunately is a real risk and nothing we can stop with just words.
     

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