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The inconsistency in FFB levels really lets AC down

Discussion in 'Chit Chat Room' started by SeeNoWeevil, Feb 27, 2016.

  1. SeeNoWeevil

    SeeNoWeevil Gamer

    Many cars either aren't using anywhere near the full range of FFB available and feel light and 'videogamey' or have such high gain, they clip badly and all FFB nuance is lost. The difference between the 'light' and 'heavy' cars can be as much as 40%, which in FFB terms is huge. Tuning each car's individual gain with something like the FFBClip app results in a much, *much* better experience. So much so that before doing this, I was pretty close to refunding the game. Yes, I realise such an app isn't the objective truth when it comes to FFB gain, but I'm confident the majority would find AC so much more enjoyable with more consistent levels. Currently, imo, each car needs time spent by the player tuning FFB. Setting a global gain value and not tuning each car leads to a pretty lousy experience. Time I would rather spend playing the actual game. Some cars are just not pleasant to drive with their default values. At all. The Gallardo would be example of a car with so much gain, almost all fine-grained feedback is lost. Please consider a greater focus on FFB consistency, I think many players won't feel inclined to investigate tuning levels themselves. When tuned properly, the FFB in AC is *sublime*. So much so I struggle to play other driving games.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2016

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  3. Eero

    Eero Simracer

    It takes me only couple of seconds to set approximately correct FFB value for each car using only pedals app to see that forces aren't clipping.
     
    AurusCE, Fear, donShere and 11 others like this.
  4. SeeNoWeevil

    SeeNoWeevil Gamer

    You can't set a good level in a couple of seconds. Even so, why should the player have to do this? Why are some of the cars clipping like crazy from the get-go?
     
    nate likes this.
  5. Sleeper Service

    Sleeper Service Hardcore Simmer

    The problem is that different cars have different feel through the steering wheel. Dunno what you may have driven in real life but from my experiences sitting in the cockpit of a slicks and wings, open wheel single seater is a totally different feeling in your hands to a modern day saloon. There's power steering to take into account as well.

    A Formula Palmer Audi takes more effort to steer (for steer read wrestle ;) ) around the track than a Fiat 500. My experience is also that once slicks and wings let go there is very little feedback until grip is regained :eek:.

    I find that AC gives a decent approximation of the difference in "feel" between car and tyre combinations. Might not be as strong as IRL but then again I'm using a G27 which isn't the strongest wheel. If you feel the amount of "effort" is lacking then start saving up for a dd wheel with some powerful motors :D

    Wrt to clipping like crazy from the get go just think that Kunos have to set levels for multiple users. We don't all have the same kit at our disposal do we ;)
     
    AurusCE, Horus, TDS and 6 others like this.
  6. SeeNoWeevil

    SeeNoWeevil Gamer

    The wheel is irrelevant. Clipped output is clipped output. My point being, you cannot set a particular global gain and have a good experience across all cars. Many users will just run with the stock settings and never feel inclined to investigate why some cars feel bad.
     
    Boris Lozac and nate like this.
  7. liakjim

    liakjim Alien

    I kind off agree with @SeeNoWeevil .

    The perfect Assetto Corsa would be as such : auto recognize the wheel (it does) and then adjust all cars' FFB to perfect non clipping setting.

    That was the situation at 1.3 (if i am not mistaken). All cars were adjusted to my G27 and i had to adjust by minimal amount of force.

    In 1.4 some cars are perfect (like F40) , other returned to clipping face (some GT3 cars), other need more than 100% (rare).
    Most of the time a FFB external app is a must though.

    1.5 update has some big gap from 1.4. I suggest to wait until then and revisit this thread.

    There is indeed an inconsistency though. Also a workaround. Last one it shouldn't to be needed.

    P.S. In rF2 almost 99% of the cars are always perfect. Rarely i had to adjust the gain.
     
  8. Sleeper Service

    Sleeper Service Hardcore Simmer

    Which is why, for me, there is the option to adjust for each car. It takes little time compared to working on set up (which will affect the FFB I assume) and is then saved away for each car. As we progress through further iterations of tyre model (currently ranging through two or three different versions throughout the range of Kunos cars) things are bound to get a little flakey. Hopefully, as @liakjim says, 1.5 will give us a little more consistency. For me, it's no issue to run the FFBClip app and make some adjustments after 2 or 3 laps along with any set up adjustments I care to make during practice or quali.

    At the end of the day I don't think it lets AC down. It just means that I have to spend a few extra minutes getting dialled in.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2016
    Horus and f1webberfan like this.
  9. Tberg

    Tberg Alien

    It takes balls for a newcomer to these forums, to ask devs to consider "greater focus" on ffb. I'll give you that.
    As discussed a million times, it's a compromise between having "optimum" ffb with clip on the limit and preserving weight feel differences between cars. With a strong enough wheel it's not an issue to not adjust every single car, you just set global gain once and forget about it. For weaker wheels, sure the ffb-clip app is a great tool, if you can't use the pedal app and adjust within a lap.

    Cheers
     
  10. rd.king

    rd.king Hardcore Simmer

    The steering wheel feedback I get when I drive my Ford truck is completely different
    from the feedback I get from my Ford Mustang.
    I think I'll head over to the Ford forum and let them know.
    Maybe know ones mentioned it before.
     
  11. SeeNoWeevil

    SeeNoWeevil Gamer

    What a strange thing to say. I don't need a sizeable post history before I can offer my constructive feedback. I want the game to do well and if I feel strongly about something, I'm going to post about it. Don't agree? Don't read it.

    This is just not true. If you reduced your global gain to prevent some of the cars clipping so badly, you'll end up with others with next to no resistance at all.

    I don't think you even read my post.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2016
    donShere, Casper, nate and 2 others like this.
  12. kakusso

    kakusso Hardcore Simmer

    Assetto corsa is praised to have the best FFB in the industry.
    In the quest to avoid any clipping some people run the wheel so light that it becomes unrealistic.
    Drivers have to keep in shape in order to hold the wheel for the duration of the race.
     
  13. Andrew_WOT

    Andrew_WOT Alien

    It was much worse before, at 1.3 Kunos tried to adjust FFB across the board to even it out. Still not perfect and FFBClip is essential app on my hud. Gladly adjustment just takes Num +/- keypresses, or clicks on FFB gain spinner app and can be done on the fly.

    Most sims have car specific ffb gain setting, must be a reason for that.
     
  14. With a powerful wheel all I do is I set the gain from driver and options to 100% and lower gain per car to around 35%. That pretty much fits every car. Sometimes I kind of cheat and raise the gain to 40% if the conditions are slippery.
     
    tommi karsikas likes this.
  15. ouvert

    ouvert Alien

    hmm that is pretty subjective thing .. I heard the same thing about rF2 and AMS/SCE ... some would put even updated R3E above AC ... personally I couldnt`t tell which one is better, impression of AC FFB strongly depends if I jump to it directly from one of those sims ...and even than after few laps it feels good
    But I do not have issues OP is mentioninig .. usually 79-89 % and I`m fine ...FFB should feel different accross all cars ..

    Only sim that works perfectly across all cars without fine tuning is SCE/AMS .
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2016
  16. SeeNoWeevil

    SeeNoWeevil Gamer

    It does have the best FFB implementation out there imo, which is why it bothers me so much that people might not get to experience that because they don't take the time out to tune it properly. It's not the end of the world for me to tune each car (although I'd rather not) but many people just won't bother and may just consider the FFB as poor or avoid driving particular cars. I love the game now, but my first impressions were not good.
     
  17. Tberg

    Tberg Alien

    Unless you actually have an Accuforce, OSW, Leo B, or at least a CSW, it doesn't appear to me that you know the slightest of what I'm talking about. You want me to say "don't know about it? Don't post about it."? Of cause I read about stuff on this forum.
    And it must be aggravating as a dev to read that one should focus more in an area, that along with the physics is what the whole sim is build upon.

    If anything, it's good that you want the sim to succeed, like many of us ;-)
     
    Sleeper Service likes this.
  18. kakusso

    kakusso Hardcore Simmer

    I have tried the FFB anti-clipping app and personally I think that it makes the wheel too light, feels unrealistic, at least compared to my road car.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2016
    Mogster likes this.
  19. Dean Ogurek

    Dean Ogurek Alien

    I think most titles require some level of fine-tuning the FFB levels by the user; with GSC and now AMS, Reiza refers to those that care enough to do so as being "Power Users"; one's who seek out and learn how to adjust FFB via the ini file settings. In AC, we don't have to do that but, it does also limit what we can do to alter the FFB. That's another reason I like SimCommander so much, it allows greater control of FFB in any title and it's one that's consistent in any case.

    Pcars might serve as an example where dev's attempted to make it easy for anyone to adjust any FFB parameter desired but, it's far too complex for most users to understand. My point being, adjusting FFB to suit personal preference requires time, testing and persistence - no matter what system is implemented. The greater the range of the effects, the hardware/software, the greater the possibilities but, it still requires work on the part of the user and FFB is so subjective that it's impossible to satisfy everyone.

    Granted, some games just work straight out of the box; to me, rF2 and GSC come to mind but, I do want there to be pretty broad range in FFB; typical Road Cars should be far more subtle, dampened and less responsive than purpose-built race cars, open-Wheeler's, etc. Still, some won't like those title's FFB straight-away. As mentioned, the hardware being used plays a huge part in that range and our perception of the effectiveness of the FFB. There are certainly things I'd like to see improved in AC's FFB but, it's very good overall IMO; it's only when comparing back-to-back to other titles that it starts to show some weakness.

    In testing AMS and reading others opinions of FFB, it's quite interesting seeing the broad range of opinions of the FFB and one can see patterns develop in relation to the hardware being used. It has to be very difficult for dev's to customize per wheel - especially if they don't have actual hardware; not going to happen very often with high-end options costing thousands. I know SimX is sending AF units out to some developers now so they can develop custom profiles/presets but, OSW-type and Bodnar wheels may not be well represented and they are the most capable wheels with the greatest range of effects available. They may be the wheels most in need of well-tuned FFB, certainly the ones in the best position to maximize FFB effects.

    As an interesting note to DD users: SimXperience is considering adding support for OSW wheels to SC4. Personally, I think it'd be a great option to have - especially if one already uses it for SimVibe support.
     
    Sleeper Service likes this.
  20. Andrew_WOT

    Andrew_WOT Alien

    Interesting, source? Not like OSW needs one with AC but could be useful for other sims.
     
  21. Andrew_WOT

    Andrew_WOT Alien

    Anti-clipping app? If you mean FFBClip, it does not do anything to FFB, just shows you recommended settings which you should set yourself. To get the fullest dynamic range out, just keep FFB graph a tiny bit under clipping line with occasional spikes on curbs, etc.
     

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