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The learning curve

Discussion in 'Chit Chat Room' started by Bob Peirce, Dec 7, 2017.

  1. Bob Peirce

    Bob Peirce Racer

    Anybody who has been following my posts will have noted my frustration with trying to achieve the same experience I get on the track. AC is so good that driving a car I know on a track I know almost feels right, except it doesn't. I guess it never can. Sometimes I get it right and my lap times are about what I expect, but I seem to be unable to keep from crashing with some regularity.

    Thinking about something else it suddenly popped into my head that I have spent less than 50 hours on a simulation of something that I have spent over 10,000 ours actually doing. Things that I just do by automatic reflex on the track don't happen in the sim. For example there is a hairpin where the car will step out if I get on the gas too early or too hard. I don't even think about it. I just deal with it. In AC I am likely to end up in power oversteer!

    Some people are extremely accomplished at AC. How long did it take? Should I feel disappointed that I am progressing so slowly or is that the normal expectation.
     

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  3. Rudski

    Rudski Alien

    It depends how you spent the 50 hours I guess and how well or badly you setup your wheel and how well or badly you setup your FOV. The field of view plays a big part in judging distances and speeds and moving from real life racing to simulator racing will take a while for the brain and eyes to figure them out. Try to find references points as this will help with consistency when it comes to brake points and that in turn will start giving you consistent entry and exit speeds.

    What I did was not jump around from track to track and car to car. To get used to the sims physics and the lack of other real life inputs and judging speeds on a 2D screen, it's much easier to stick to the same car/track combo till you have it down pat.
    I recommendation the KTM and for example the BMW GT2 and just stick to those two cars for now (one manual and one sequential).

    Track wise pick something you like (I went with Imola) and the Nordschleife. The reason for the Nordschleife is simple. It's a track that will test or teach you all the driving techniques you need to learn or improve. While learning the track I would turn off damage so you can first focus on hitting the corners and you'll be able to continue if you crash without having to restart over and over. Once you're able to do consistent lap times on the Nord that will indicate you're judging speeds and distances really well.

    For me it wasn't till around 200 hours that I got used to everything but I also was messing with my setup in every imaginable way while doing it. Once you're happy with your setup stick to it because if you change your FOV later on it will take a while to re-adjust.
     
    Ischemica and Ace Pumpkin like this.
  4. Bob Peirce

    Bob Peirce Racer

    I have no way to respond to your initial remark except to say that I actually feel like I am there doing it so I guess I am close enough to start. A lot of the 50 hours has been spent trying to get things set up correctly and I think I am finally there. Others have mentioned FOV. I am using the default and it seems to be okay, although I guess I could fiddle with it.

    I'm with you on tracks and cars. I spend almost all my time at Pitt Race nowadays and I drive a Cayman R. Somebody created a mod for Pitt Race which is very realistic and I am using that. The closest car is the 718 with PDK. I adjusted the front alignment to -1.1 to match my car. Tires are an issue. I am running Michelin Super Sports which are way better than most street tires which leaves me undecided between the ST and SM tires in AC. I've tried both but have mostly been using the ST tire.

    However, my main question remains unanswered. Among people who feel they are really good at this, how long did it take? If I just need to develop more experience, that is okay, but I'd like to have some idea how long it might take.
     
  5. Rudski

    Rudski Alien

    The FOV is different on each persons system, there is no "default" as such. It's a calculation between the size of the screen(s) and how far away you sit to the screen.
    Here's the calculator http://www.projectimmersion.com/fov/

    Regarding how long it takes to get really good, skill is not based on time.
     
  6. PhilS13

    PhilS13 Alien

    Driving skill is mostly based on time.

    When you look at the best of the best, it's incredibly rare to find someone in there that has been simracing regularly for less than 4-5 years. Most of them have been doing it for more than 10.

    Obviously if the goal is to reach a decent level where you can keep it on the track and push with confidence you don't need that much time.

    As a rough guess I would think someone starting from scratch but with real track experience should match his real life confidence level within 300 hours once setup properly. The difficulty for you is that you have lost some very useful sensory inputs and it can be hard to find new ones that you can rely on. I know you are focusing on a particular combo but it's important to mix it up, try other cars, very different ones, to make sure you don't get stuck into bad driving habits.
     
  7. MrDeap

    MrDeap Hardcore Simmer

    @PhilS13 doesn't like this picture
    [​IMG]

    This brought me to illumination. I improve without practicing. :D
     
  8. PhilS13

    PhilS13 Alien

    The retard has arrived. Good luck with the thread now.
     
    mtz.enjoi, Berry, bondyboy and 4 others like this.
  9. MrDeap

    MrDeap Hardcore Simmer

    Indeed, I feel like a complete retard, because it took me awhile to understand what was that meaning of driving skill.

    All I had to do is lift off & drive more on-off with the accelerator. Fixed my bad lap times.

    It's a valid Troubleshooting - Workarounds.

    The more late you accelerate, the more you can floor it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  10. AC Support

    AC Support Official Support Staff Member KS Dev Team

    Everybody cool down please. Bob, the better thing you can do now is to show us a video while you're driving (in AC) with visible steering wheel in cockpit and pedals app on screen, so we can help you to improve your driving. Forget FOV setting and other stuff now.
     
  11. demonized

    demonized Simracer

    If your feeling on track doesn't correlate with sim, then don't bother. real life can't be wrong :)
     
  12. iannixxenakis

    iannixxenakis Hardcore Simmer

    I wouldn't worry too much Bob, at the moment you could say you're on the fun bit of the curve.

    You can make big improvements with small changes to your technique and approach.

    When you have more experience the gains become marginal.

    Zen Buddhists have a concept called 'The Beginner's Mind' which proposes the idea that you should always strive to cultivate the mindset of a beginner regardless of your experience.

    The beginner sees many possibilities and has an open mind, the expert is closed-minded and dogmatic (some scientific studies back this up too).

    Keep driving, keep learning, enjoy the journey not the idea of getting to a destination, and don't lose your beginner's mind :)
     
    MrDeap, sissydriver, Serge M and 3 others like this.
  13. Mogster

    Mogster Alien

    One big difference for me is the way I “see” the corners on a flat monitor.

    In rl I have a much better feel for the optimum line due to FOV and depth perception it seems, on a flat monitor I can struggle to find a decent line. It obvious when I watch replays of my driving that I’m on the wrong part of the track... VR has helped a lot with this but it’s still not perfect.

    I don’t want to teach grandma... but If you haven’t already it’s worth reading some theory. Ross Bentley’s “Speed Secrets” helped me quite a bit, some things about optimising your driving are obvious but some elements are counter intuitive, at least to me.

    There isn’t really a substitute for practice unfortunately. The people with the best times are normally the ones with 1000s of hours in sims...
     
  14. Bob Peirce

    Bob Peirce Racer

    By default I meant the 56° that AC begins with. I left it that way because it provides a very good depiction of what I see on the track, but I do need to move my eyes from side to side as I drive, just as I do on the track. The FOV calculation comes out to 39° based on a 42" screen viewed from 29" away. I'll give it a try but I'm no sure of the benefit. On track I like to get the widest view that is reasonable.

    I mis-spoke about time to acquire skill. I got reasonably adequate on track in relatively few sessions, but I keep getting slightly better after many sessions. I guess I am wondering how long it will take before I acquire reasonable control of my car. In other words, how long to develop a reasonable feel for the simulator.
     
  15. Bob Peirce

    Bob Peirce Racer

    That's the info I was looking for. I've been tracking my car for fifteen years and gained the most in the first few years, Since then it has been a few tenths here and there. However, since some of that experience is transferrable it should take a lot less in AC. Nevertheless, from what you say I have probably been expecting too much too quickly. Fortunately, the visual and aural sensory inputs are remarkably similar and that is helping a lot. I think the big thing I miss is the physical, the actual feel of the car accelerating, braking and slipping, and that is probably where a lot of the power oversteer is coming from. It is good to know it will probably come with more time.
     
  16. Bob Peirce

    Bob Peirce Racer

    Here we go with the manual [lack thereof] again. I didn't know I could get a video. How do I do that? How do I show it?
     
  17. Naondave

    Naondave Racer

    Try out the calculated fov for a while and see how you do
     
  18. dajdosta

    dajdosta Racer

    Lower FOV can do wonders for your sim driving. You loose peripheral vision but everything else should be more natural and easier. Try 30 FOV.
     
    LeDude83 and sissydriver like this.
  19. AC Support

    AC Support Official Support Staff Member KS Dev Team

    Even with a smartphone or a GoPro if you own one and you don't know how to use video recording software. Then you can upload it on your youtube channel.
     
  20. MrDeap

    MrDeap Hardcore Simmer

    You can always share you replay files "*:\Users\***\Documents\Assetto Corsa\replay" via "google drive" or simply upload it on the forum(although you can add .txt in the end of the file name).



    The record method would be using shadowplay/AMD Relive or OBS...

    Many users have a YouTube account. Community can take care of the video format.
     
  21. Turk

    Turk Alien

    I have about 500 hours and I feel pretty competent at this stage. I think if I could put in more hours I could mix it up with yhe best of them. it did take around 200 hours before I felt like I really knew what I was doing, but I was starting from a point of pure ignorance, I had to learn race craft along the way.

    While sim racing and real racing share some basic singularities I think you have to view it as starting from scratch until you get comfortable driving virtual cars (which are missing gforces).

    A VR headset makes a huge difference too.
     
    mms likes this.

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