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Trailbraking useful in ACC?

Discussion in 'ACC General Discussions' started by henkjansmits, Dec 5, 2019.

  1. henkjansmits

    henkjansmits Simracer

    I bought this Fanatec V3 pedal stuff in their BF sale. But when it arrived I realised this was a pointless purchase because from looking at the breakmeter in replay I realise I don't really trailbrake and I just tend to go from 0-100% directly and vice versa (I could have done that before wasting money off course :) ).

    My question is really what is a good corner to practise this on in ACC and see if it gives some benefit? And what is a good way to analyse, do I really need this motec stuff or are there some basic graphs somewhere like AC had?

    I'll give it a go with ABS off but I'm starting to get the impression that with ABS the ABS might be doing the part where break pressure is reduced when you start steering while braking and in ACC you can just mostly use the 0-100% approach...
     

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  3. Coanda

    Coanda Alien

    Leave ABS on and yes learn to trail brake for better braking performance.

    Motec is better to analyze your pedal traces however you can monitor this in replay by enabling the Speed/Gear widget in the HUD options.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
  4. m_box97

    m_box97 Simracer

    I bought yesterday the Elite LC (previously I had the g29 pedals) and my limited (only a couple of hours) experience is the exact opposite. Yes you can stay on the brakes 100% till the apex thanks to the ABS but if you manage to control your braking force trail braking becomes a lot more effective at low speeds. Use the lights on the sides of the dash to know when the abs is working and release brake pressure accordingly
     
  5. Captain Barracuda

    Captain Barracuda Hardcore Simmer

    Trail brake
     
  6. Dobermann92

    Dobermann92 Gamer

    Trailbrake every corner even it is a small one :D
     
  7. Turk

    Turk Alien

    That might be just down to not being used to the load cell. You are used to a linear action where the more you move the pedal the more you brake. With load cells it's about how hard you push, so even though you may have the brake pedal pushed in half it's travel your not getting half your braking potential.

    You are missing out on laptime if you're not trail breaking.

    Use the app Coanda mentions to see how much you need to push on the brake pedal to get 50-80% braking. It's just a matter of getting used to it.
     
  8. chakko

    chakko Alien

    Dunno... i never felt like GT3's are prone to be trail braked much.
     
  9. Oblit0r

    Oblit0r Alien

    Trail brake for pretty much every single corner.
     
  10. dave967

    dave967 Racer

    Trailbraking works great for me, its a part of learning how to be consistently fast lap after lap..
     
  11. henkjansmits

    henkjansmits Simracer

    Thanks for inputs everyone, I see that the majority think this is worth it also in ACC, and that is predominantly a slower corners thing. So I'm guessing e.g. Brands Hatch T2 or T4 or something.

    I knew about the "why" and I thought I was doing this "intuitively" already, turns out I wasn't. I think im going to try doing this with the "normal" (non LC) CSL elite pedals first since I'm more used to that and I find I can more easily apply 30%-50% braking input. Once that gives some benefit with low ABS (3/10 you have on aggressive setup) I'll look at the load cell again. As of now, I find using the LC just harder since I seem to use whole body to apply pressure for 100% even on the lightest setting. Any time you screw up on the initial 100% straightline breaking the corner is usually a disaster..
     
  12. Oblit0r

    Oblit0r Alien

    I'd say forget about the potentiometer brake, you'll have to relearn how to trailbrake with the LC again anyways. Just give it a couple of days to get used to it. It took me quite a while to get used to LC braking after having used a potentiometer for years.
    Just jump in hotlap or hotstint mode and forget about racing other cars, just drive and drive and drive. But make sure to record a couple of laps and 'study' the footage and keep a close eye on the input telemetry and try to spot which parts of the track need work.
     
    Turk, m_box97 and Coanda like this.
  13. m_box97

    m_box97 Simracer

    I agree, first day with the LC felt weird because I was used to think where my foot was and not how much pressure I was applying but today (second day) was a lot better than with the potentiometer. I really suggest to just stick with the LC otherwise it will always feel strange
     
  14. lionbest

    lionbest Racer

    You can also just go to the settings screen where you see how much you press the pedal and just press 100% as you would when racing, holding the wheel and everything.

    Then learn to gradually release by looking at the pressure in % on the screen.

    Most of the times you will need to release slightly to be able to efficiently turn the wheel and the car.
     
  15. esox71

    esox71 Alien

    Potentiometer brake and LC brake will just feel the same if they hade identical dampers, it still how much you press even with Potentiometer.
     
  16. Bob Peirce

    Bob Peirce Racer

    Are you saying you don't know how to trail brake or you can't with these pedals?

    The pedals need to be adjusted to work comfortably with your style whatever it is. I have them and I have zero trouble trail braking even on marginal trail braking corners. Supposedly trail braking should be used up to about 60 mph corners or so but once you learn how you can easily add a little trail braking up to 75-80 or so.

    If you don't you need to learn how and these pedals are good for that as well. My initial problem years ago was I came off the brakes too abruptly and unsettled the car. Once I learned to come off smoothly (an instructor told me he didn't want to feel me come off the brakes!) adding trail braking was easy. You just have to overcome the novice driver's instruction to only brake in a straight line.
     
  17. deadmeat2k

    deadmeat2k Racer

    Playing with the Fantatec V3 pedals as well, and I do nothing but trail braking in ACC all the time. The car balance is insanely important in this game, and trail braking helps balancing the car into the corner. By releasing the brake instantly you really upset the car balance and this will often harm both turn-in and general car control through a corner.

    If you find it hard to control breaking with the new pedals, then try and play around with brake bias in settings. Find a curve that fits your particular play style and preference. Personally I run with 1.2 brake bias, because of the increased control that gives with light breaking.
     
  18. during a corner, you are supposed to arrive on trottle, you press the break pedal at the beginning and the trottle later.
    so it is trottle brake trottle.
    If you go on off, it is just a matter of lines.
    But it's not just a matter of lines.

    your laptimes strongly depend on how you perform the two transient phases:
    trottle to brake
    brake to trottle

    in trottle to brake, it's a matter of speed and precision.

    in brake to trottle you have trailbraking and then trottle management.

    and there is where the driving style lies.

    improvements in those transients lead to big improvements on all tracks.
    work on
    1) trottle to brake transient, as fast as you can.
    2) optimal downshifting.
    3) proper trailbraking.
    4) get the Apex at maximum speed possible.
    5) grip when you go back on trottle.

    any improvement in any of those aspects will help you to improve the remaining ones.
    But work on them separately at first.

    If you compare you imput with top world hotlap, you will find many differences in any of those aspects. or most of them.
     
    Jetsun and Piret2000 like this.
  19. Guido Trampe

    Guido Trampe Simracer

  20. Aristotelis

    Aristotelis Will it drift? Staff Member KS Dev Team

    I'll go against the tide. Don't trailbrake. (the shock, the horror!).

    Well actually you should but first it would be helpful to know at what level of driving you're at.
    If you're entry level up to good driver but not very good to alien, DON'T trailbrake. Learn to modulate and release gradually the brake but way before the apex.
    If you're very good to alien driver, then by all means trailbrake.

    Why?
    GT3 cars are extremely aero pitch sensitive. To counteract this, their brake balance and mechanical suspension setup is quite on the understeery side to keep the car stable at turn in. Stable turn in, makes th aero work better and keeps the TC from being invasive at the exit. It might be unspectacular, but it is more efficient and faster. If you are not a high level driver, then it is very easy to trailbrake just a hint more than it is needed, engage the ABS, use too much longitudinal grip from the tyres and provoke even more understeer than it is needed. You might think the car needs more traibraking because it understeers, but in reality you just force the car into even more understeer by doing it. Add to this, GT3 Pirelli tyres that have a very narrow slipangle peak (4°-5°) and you get a numble feeling from the front end while keeps pushing wide. Most people that complain about ACC feeling, do just this, trying to drive GT3 cars as vintage touring cars, trying to rotate them with trailbraking... it doesn't work like this.

    What to do?
    Brake hard 100% use all the ABS in a straight line. As you turn in, progressively modulate the brake pressure... "But this is trailbra..." I hear you say... No! When you just did the first phase turn in, release the brakes completely, way before the apex. Do not try to rotate the car on the brakes. Release the brakes and do not go on the gas either. Let the car coast until the apex. You'll be surprised by both the front end grip, stability and ability to go to the gas after the apex. Misano hairpins are a good place to try this. So again;
    Brake in a straight line.
    Turn in and progressively release the brake EARLY
    Coast to the apex, NO brake, NO gas.
    Profit!

    Why this is happening?
    As we said, GT3 cars are extremely pitch sensitive. Having a stable aero platform (car not pitching much more than the setup values), greatly helps with your grip and stability. Releasing the brakes, helps the car to maintain a stable aero platform. Also remember that ABS in ACC is properly simulated. This means that as in reality the left to right bias of the brakes cannot exceed 30%. This is why occasionally you can lock the inner wheel, even with ABS kicking. Even if you're not locking the inner wheel, if you trailbrake too much, you're sliding it and living lateral grip unexploited.

    But I'm an Alien!
    Well in that case, you know what to do, why are you here? :D
    Seriously though, if you have access to an alien replay, have a look at their brake pressure while trailbraking, it is really minimal and they can also run more rear brake bias, because they are very precise with the wheel and can do so without upsetting the car balance.

    Hope that helps.
     

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