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Tyre Talk

Discussion in 'Chit Chat Room' started by kraM1t, Nov 21, 2017.

  1. kraM1t

    kraM1t Racer

    Here's the scenario

    SF15T @ Magione (Yes strange combo lol)
    SuperSoft tyres @ 6psi in the setup screen

    Rears overheat after one lap, the tyre is orange and the psi has risen to an orange/red state also, rear grip feels like ice.

    Now if I raise the rear pressure to 9psi in the setup screen for the rears only, I can maintain green tyre temperatures but the psi is constantly in the orange/red.

    I understand that raising the pressure makes the tyre shape change and has less contact with the road so less heat is generated when you're pushing hard.

    I'm just wondering how the F1 engineers approach this in real life and how you guys approach such a situation in-game? I read from Aris that tyre pressure is more important to keep green than tyre temperature.

    Is for instance, Sebastian Vettel using US tyres that are running too much pressure to mitigate the overheating issue that could be happening at current track temperatures? Or do they get the correct tyre pressure and then deal with the overheating tyre by driving less aggressively. I notice Automobilista and rF2 isn't so sensitive with tyre psi/temps... just wondering what you guys think :D

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  3. Gevatter

    Gevatter Alien

    The thing is that you should choose the right tire for a given track and a given temperature.

    Generally "green" pressure is said to be more important than "green" temperatures, but only if the tire doesn't overheat. If it overheats you need to change to harder compounds. You also have to take into account what you're planning to do, and if tyre wear is enabled. A short sprint race won't kill your tires, but if you run for long stints you may go with a harder compund that doesn't heat up and only pit once instead of twice, or you might not.

    I usually go out on whatever tires is stock for the cars and drive a few laps and see where the temps and pressures go, then adjust accordingly.
  4. kraM1t

    kraM1t Racer

    Yeah that's what I usually do. I'm wondering more like, say they qualify the day before sunday on some US @ 25c track temp and the tyres and pressures are in the perfect window, but the next race day they must start on their Q2 tyres, and suddenly track temp is 40c, now the pressures are too high and the tyres overheat a lot.. but they don't react like ice like in AC, they just wear down really fast and they must pit earlier with blistering/high wear rates etc then they might pit onto the harder compound which has a different temperature window.

    I know it's all a balancing act but I think AC gets it wrong in that circumstance no? How come the tyres turn to ice but IRL they just slide a little more/wear faster/blister. I'm by no means criticising AC or claiming I know more than Kunos because trust me I'm just a pleb trying to wrap my head around it all lol
  5. Gevatter

    Gevatter Alien

    The argument that tires lose too much grip when they overheat has been brought up here before. Being a pleb myself, I have no idea how realistic the grip loss situation in AC really is :)
  6. kraM1t

    kraM1t Racer

    I think the grip loss / slip is what makes AC so great for drifting and lets you drive on the limit the way drivers describe in real life. But it seems to take too long for the tyre to then cool back down which I think is where the ice feeling comes from
  7. Aristotelis

    Aristotelis Will it drift? Staff Member KS Dev Team

    It is a very, Very, VERY complicated matter.
    We often (every week?) talk and have doubts about it. One of the most difficult aspects of tyre modelling and as usual not much documentation about it.
    Still, everytime we have the doubts, we go back to test some real cars and we get back thinking "damn it must be right, then..."

    To give you an example, in my recent Game&Track event, I was driving the Mercedes AMG GT and the Porsche 991 GTS4. It was a great autumn day, slightly sunny but chilly, ambient temperatures around 15°C. Track is "Autodromo di Modena", which is a short twisty track, similar to magione. You can find a mod of it over at racedepartment

    So get to the car (merc first) and ask our guys to check the pressure.
    - "Yeah yeah no issues, go, it's at 30psi..."
    - "Guys that's too much... "
    - "No no it isn't, you'll see... "
    Ok, off I go. Plan is 2 taxi laps for the passenger and in again. 2nd lap, car is all over the place. Turn in oversteer, mid corner sloppiness, 3rd gear 30% gas drift up to the limiter on a wide turn (search omega curve on the track)...
    Enter the pits
    - "Guys, please check my tyre pressures..."
    - "pfff... alright..." - " WTF ARIS??! they are at 42psi!?!?!"
    - "yeah right, so they are hot now... hmm... please go down to 30"
    - "30 hot!?!? that's way to low... ok if you say so"
    Out again... 2laps... MUCH better. Next passenger, 2 laps, 2nd lap a complete mess.
    - "Guys, tyre pressures again please"
    - "... ok..." - "39psi?????"
    - "Ok, down again at 30"

    Same thing with the Porsche, especially the rear ones. Keep in mind that my order to go to 30psi was with the tyres hot. So we pull down the pressure (while hot!) at 30psi for two times. That's how much pressure the tyres where gaining by lapping (yes I was drifting around a bit).

    Now, race tyres? Well it is a bit different of course, first of all, they have a less linear gain in spring rate when they go up in pressure. They probably gain more heat by sliding on the external surface (flash temp) but less on the core... But then again they get bigger flat spots when spinning, practically a lock up in a modern slick tyre can destroy the tyre. It's quite difficult to setup and we are getting to the limits of what I can do by playing with the numbers. We probably need some extra code there.
    Still researching, but as I said, on the other hand we might not even be so far away from reality. The problem is always the same. When you speak with trackdayers or even worse pro pilots, they will all tell you that tyres are more "gradual". But nobody drives the **** out of them. When you do (in reality and as we often do in simulation) they become nasty.
    Opel-King, LeonW, aphidgod and 11 others like this.
  8. kraM1t

    kraM1t Racer

    Thank you so much for the deep explanation Aris, much appreciated :D Would be so awesome if you had a current or ex pro-pilot to test AC driving it over a longer stint to say how the tyres should react at certain points and under certain conditions... but that's a pipe dream lol

    Every other car in AC reacts perfectly imo, like you said I imagine getting data for F1 tyres is quite impossible lol

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