Unpopular Opinion, FFB and handling

So R2 arrived, congratulations about that, everybody In general I am very positive and very impressed how things are evolving. A lot of awesomness to mention and yet to find out if to do full review.

However, not everything evolving in absolute ideal way considering simulation factor, which is essential here. Take this with a grain of salt, as this is my individual perception, and doesn't seem to match with the majority of members around here, and inevitably going to be unpopular.

I am mainly thinking about FFB. It was quite a bit stormy in R1, as FFB was so much different than AC, which I suppose was very pure, and if it was off, I just don't believe it could have been by much. So I seen all sorts of feedback which was even contradicting itself: from overdamped FFB horror to blank lifeless FFB. And that feedback could have been true if it was so with some particular wheels, but I think that mostly it was just not being familiar with big changes of handling and FFB comparing to AC in which a lot of members spent more than 1000 hours during the years believing that realism levels are as high as it can be.

So FFB got improved in R2. Or was it ? It must depend on where you stand, what is your reference point, what you expect from simulation. Somebody is right, and somebody is wrong.

FFB improved significantly if we would consider people right about the fact that simracers are short of real life hints that driver has when being in that thing doing those crazy things in the track. Also FFB really improved if you want FFB to be as helpful as it can be while still being relatively real. FFB must really be better if you come home after hard serious work day and you still want to be able to smash your PB laptime even if you can't fully concentrate. FFB improved as you will just have less mistakes. But did it really improve or does it just make your task easier ? With this logic we could improve tire grip, improve brakes performance, we will find arguments for that, for example simracers are short of inertia forces and sense of speed, short of real life details behind computer we will always be... With this logic it is dangerous to make simulation too easy.

FFB is worse if you consider pure realism as one and the only important thing. Unless you think that steering is connected to rear axle too. To me it felt like R1 FFB was really nailed down, even if there were room for tweaks essentially it felt just as good as I would have dreamed. R1 FFB gave excellent feel of tires. Fronts by just clearly being connected to front axle it gave excellent feel of "leading" the car, and rears by seeing car yaw angle changing more than it should and tires sound it sent early message of rear end slip. And rear end with particular bit of bigger oversteer angle inevitably translated feedback to front, it was just not that instant as many wish, you were no longer a wizard who can tell rear slip angle at any given moment if you just pay minimal attention, and force steer the car through nastiest moments. You really had to be aware of car yaw angle "becoming weird", and as for catching the car and overall steering on the limit the input actions were exactly or very similar as seen IRL. In my opinion Kunos has shown how close to real thing they can take the simulation in 2018. However as getting that close to real thing it is becoming dangerous to overdo it and make it just a little too difficult. But was it too difficult ?

I really loved wobbly car behavior with previous FFB, as you had that much of control at the front, and rear end felt having more freedom. It was especially fun in the rain, right now rain got less immersive, as it is so much more about sliding around.

Must to mention that, yes, Lambo physics was tweaked, but I don't buy it, it couldn't transform that much.

Few other things might have changed, it also could be just side effects of different FFB and my messed up impressions, sorry for possible nonsense - feels like tire slip curve and the way tires respond to inputs (relaxation length, flexing feel) has been flattened a bit. Could be false statement and just product of changed FFB have to drive more to check. With 40 hours in R1 I spent a lot of attention to how things are going on, I can tell the differences.

Finally, hey it is not real life, so we simracers find excuses how less realistic is actually more realistic and more believable. There even was a thread how guy found how too realistic simulation for him is less believable, wut... . To sum up, I find FFB improved too I can do quite stupid things with less consequences, I am less stressed out by hunting down fast laptimes, it makes me feel better about my driving at given moment. But I am sad that possibly most accurate FFB has been found as "too real" too "tired" (pun intended) and it was masked by coating it over with better yaw angle feel more body FFB. Yes FFB was improved, but did it improve simulation or our driving performance ? So did it really improve ?

 

What exactly is the purpose of this thread? All I can gather, is that this is a rant because your personal opinion is that the FFB was dumbed down as you put it in another thread. Which a developer unequivocally told you did not happen with this 0.2 release.

I think your feeling on FFB may be at odds with reality here then, and your impressions may not be doing you justice.

FFB at the first early access release was objectively broken/bugged/incorrect (not sure what word to use as I dont want to sound harsh to Kunos). All wheels were objectively overdamped and this was objectively not how the FFB should have been... which is why Kunos has spent the past month and the 0.1.2 hotfix attempting to correct this.

For your impression to be that the very first release had the best FFB means that, in your opinion, bugged FFB is correct and how the FFB implementation should be. Simply put, this shows that some opinions are worth far less than others about FFB

My comment above is solely talking about 1 aspect though, the overdampened FFB that was previously released. Im not speaking at all to how much detail is in the FFB now vs. then... because everyone has an opinion on that, and that is quite subjective to argue.

So, the point Im making is... complaining about the FFB as it is now when you previously liked objectively incorrect FFB, probably isnt going to win many people to your side, hence why you think this is an unpopular opinion as your thread title states.

Cheers

 

If you like the massive dampening of 0.1.x just set dampening to 200% and enjoy life, no one is going to judge you.

This thread sound more like "people is enjoying things I don't like, unacceptable!!!"

 

I'm a simple human.
Do I feel under steer?
Yes
Do I feel over steer?
Yes
Do I feel loss of grip?
Yes

Do I need more?
No

 

I'm unable to find it. Just a wall of text full of Mi Mi Mi

 

It'd be a cold day in Hell when people give something new (that's not even 24hours old!) a chance, quite how people can come to such massive conclusions without spending some serious time behind the wheel is beyond me. Give it two weeks or 24hours Play Time at least before claiming everything's "wrong", get some solid background, understand the options available, try them all out then come back and Rant. Doing it 5minutes after 0.2 release is pointless and helps nobody not least of all the Devs who will glance over this I can assure you!

 

So pretty typical Mantasig rant.

 

I made this thread because it is important. Something is directly affecting physics, or physics perception and car handling, and it changes heavily. Naturally I was defending previous version, I didn't find current better and so I am just stating that previously it was better, and try to explain why I think that it was so, most will say "you stupid what do you know", maybe someone will support idea fully or partly doesn't matter, it is just for discussion, that's the purpose of the thread.

I beg you not to jump into simpleminded conclusions. After all I made this thread purely because of idea, I really believe previous physics, FFB, handling thing was top notch, if anything else very close to it. I don't say that current is bad, it is not, but I think it is not as good, certainly not better. I was stupid to irresponsibly say it was dumbed down, but it is just a figure of speech which means that it is simplified.

I am totally aware of being unpopular and not in the path with the rest of the band, that's why this thread already warns about unpopular idea, but I just feel a need to express what I think has to be expressed, even if devs will come and say to stop spreading nonsense, for me it makes sense, but I am open to civilized opinions or proofs which would prove me being wrong. I don't care about being unpopular, I'd rather be unpopular, but right, however if I am wrong then shame on me, I'd still better express what I believe. It is just a game after all, however it really gets into me.

@nate Thanks for the only proper response, the rest are disappointing at least. Maybe you are right about wheels having problems being overdamped, but you are wrong about saying that it was all of them. Mine certainly was fine, with very minor issues if I was really trying to look for something bad. This clearly says to me that problem wasn't in the core of the game, it could have existed with particular wheels, or just in the heads of some simracers, I really expect that there will be major change with my wheel, but I was afraid that there might be core change with global effect, yet it is considered as improvement.

@mkotechno It is not damping, it is principle how FFB is translated. And why I can't promote my likes, there has to be people who shares same or similar, I know quite a lot of simracers were pleased with R1 FFB.

@Achokaracho Life is so simple to you

@After_Midnight Try to become brighter person, seek for education P.S. I remember you and Stuka like if it was one person.

 

I didn't read the entire first post, but... FFB for me is not about realism. A sim isn't realistic in the sense that you feel everything the car does, because you don't have that in a sim. So, the FFB is often your only way to feel how the car communicates with you. So, it can do more things than just behave like the steering wheel does in a real car. It HAS to do more. That's also what iRacing does so dreadfully wrong. When you oversteer, you don't feel sh**. Every bit of help you get from the FFB is much appreciated here, because it makes you feel what the car does better. Because THAT is the biggest flaw of sims. That you often don't get a feel for the car, and how it works.

 

If FFB in ACC is set to more than 75% (aprox) in my T500, it clips always no matter what force you put in trustmaster control panel. FFB isn't as strong even when clipping as the wheel is cappable of, to minimize this effect, use 70% or less ingame and bump to overall force 90% - 100% in control panel, constant and periodic at 100%, other forces as your preference. For me that works the best, totally opposite from every other sim I have played.

 

I agree with you. However, I don't say that everything is wrong, but some important bits, and I don't claim, but I strongly believe, I don't say that I KNOW so I am admitting low key that I might be wrong to some degree. I am also overall very positive about R2, I wouldn't want to play it again so much.

As for time spent. I have spent 40 hours in R1, that's enough IMO, I have spent about 4-5 in R2 maybe that's a bit short, but it was enough. I have 2K hours in AC and modding experience, but I suppose it is nothing.

@chakko Yes perhaps there should be little little little bit of hint, but not like whole principle how FFB translated being changed. I got used to R1 FFB and didn't feel no lack of cues when something is happening, in fact I felt like I had more, while at the same time it was more demanding to smooth it out, because FFB didn't work in yaw angle, but simply gave feel and direction where the front wheels are pointing. And I think that iRacing is more likely having physics problems than doing something wrong with FFB.

 

? the ffb from r1 to r2 didn't changed for me ? still feels like r1 (which is good because r1 felt very good here already)... the lambo feels pretty differend then the bentley but that's expected...

 

I'd genuinely like a group of the dissatisfied/ disgruntled and most critical start their own sim project.
I'll even donate a £1 on kickstarter , I'm nice like that

 

when something evolves it has to be re learned and that requires throwing all presumptions out of the window. I remember when eagle dynamics released their first propeller aircraft within their high end physics system. lets just say the majority of pilots had to relearn how to fly properly. but for a time they were convinced everything was wrongly implemented. you cant base anything on the previous iteration when it has been subject to evolution of the system. their new system should take into account the full lifespan of the tyre which im getting the idea is the problem here, people wants that feeling on lap 1 when they should be expecting something a lot more numb in terms of initial feedback. to accommodate for non smooth running of a tyre with X amount of scrubbed rubber and or other issues such as flat spots etc. simply put, theoretically you cant have the best FFB straight out the gate because then how are you to simulate everything that's wrong with the tyre there after ??? forces need to be added not removed..

one fact of the matter that does remain and its kunos and trust were talking about here and its not going to be wrong. but you may dislike it.

 

@Winston I am more critical about community not about devs, I think devs are awesome, especially core Kunos team. I think I have a point even if I could be wrong, R1 felt superb to me. You don't have a point came here just to troll and reduce, but that was expected.

@Pixelchaser I don't really get what you mean about tire lifespan, could you explain ?

 

Ah, I'm obviously not as nice as I thought I was

But for the record

My 'opinion' is that seeing the dev team have access to more hardware, have a highly acclaimed team with a proven track record , have input from thousands of community members and have access to the real car data, I'm happy to defer to them. I'm odd like that

You'll be happy to know that's me done in this thread

 

What the f..k is exactly wrong with you?
If people complain about the dampened FFB in R1 you're start to teaching this people they've to get used to the new kind of FFB. Or it's just nothing wrong except the human factor. Or AC flashbacks etc.
Just because YOU like it.

Now it's the other way around.
So you've to start a thread to complain about the wrong FFB because you don't like it. And you've to start to insult people with a different opinion.

Maybe you can ask here also for a free ban like you've it done at RD. You can use this time for visiting a doctor maybe.

 

oh my feels Well that's an over-reaction. Are we discussing FFB or some sim-politics and soap operas going on ?

P.S. I didn't say I don't like FFB now, I say that it was better in R1 IMO

I don't think that feedback from THOUSANDS is useful, unless you filter it out. Sadly those THOUSANDS actually has very different meaning, it is a measure of what is appreciated and what is not. Also bandwagoning is very real issue, people are afraid to be unpopular and are afraid of differences.

 

Yes that's it, only the people make it complicated

 

Yet you feel yours is useful. I'll tell you one thing. You say you love the devs. The devs told you multiple times that the physics and the FFB have not been dumbed down/tamed/simplified. Yet you keep portraying your propaganda around the forum, implicitly saying that the devs are liars and that what you think happened, really happened.