Who's at Fault? - Discussing Racecraft and Incidents

As I said above, it must be alongside, not behind.
The reason of being aligned with the driver position is quite simple: is so that the driver is aware of the other car.

When behind (you can read it: when not alongside), it’s pretty clear that the driver has a much better awareness of the car in front than the driver of the car in front of the whereabouts of the car behind, particularly when the car following is not directly behind but behind left or right.

Whenever alongside, each car has to make enough room and not swerve against the other.
Simple as that.

 

Everybody except you seems to understand the point here is is this considered a corner or a straight. You can bring up a million incidents you think are comparable, if they all happen in a corner they are irrelevant.

 

Wow, there is some animation here

Ok, lets be serious here for a few moments.

I agree with the majority here. Turn 17 is a flat-out left hander and can be considered pretty much as a straight when it comes to overtakes. What the Lambo did here is the same as squeezing somebody on a straight line who started to engage himself. When it comes to racing, a driver can change his racing line once to defend himself at the condition his opponnent is still behind him (and by behind, I don't mean having your front bumper on the level of the rear wheel of your opponent, I mean, really behind). Here, @After_Midnight has engaged himself so the Lambo can't change his racing line in this situation but he did and karma bit him in the a** for that.

@After_Midnight : if you have to back off, it is pretty much as you said, at T18 if you don't have a clear advantage to your opponnent, not at T17.

 

What did you expect from a bunch of simracers discussing incidents?

 

Indeed, dude

 

I need to understand this. xD I made a bad drawing but should be understandable:



We're talking straights right? So what you're saying is that in case A the red car would be allowed to change its line to the left and when it crashes the yellow car would get a penalty? Whereas in case B the red car is not allowed to change its line and when doing so non the less the red car would get a penalty? (penalty both in case they survive lol)

No mate I do follow racing rules (or at least I think so), but I would never expect you to change your line in this situation and "crash you" just as @After_Midnight did with the Lambo

 

Sometimes I don’t know if I bother to reply and adding some comments, but, in your case I have to ask: are you wanting to imply anything, besides being rude with how you chose to express yourself?

That’s a turn, not a straight.
Turn 16, if not mistaken.
And it’s a turn because the track goes left , and if you don’t turn left you go out of track. It even have a kerb on the inside, if that isn’t an hint enough.

 

This is Turn 17 and of course, that's a turn by definition because this is a flat-out left hander. You got that right.

However, when it comes to overtakes, Turn 17 is considered as a straight and this is why everybody here says the Lambo is at fault here.

 

No, I’m talking about corners.
Why should I be talking about straights related to the case in question?
Besides, case B is not the situation in @After_Midnight video.

Still, if that you’re rising is a situation just before a turn, the red car in case A can go left and the yellow is the one to back out.
But don’t take my word for it and check it here, if you have doubts, page 101, example 7 and 8, and please read the last sentence of example 7 : https://nasa-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/document/document/282/2020.0.pdf

One last note, the question presented by @After_Midnight is not if, due to the consequences, a driver should try to make room to avoid being put out of the race, as I’ve written previously, but about who is at fault when the contact happens.

 

Ah, so because a turn can be done flat out is no longer considered a turn.

Well, there are plenty of those, so take your time picking which ones you think must be called straight or not.
As a matter of fact Spa has another flat out turn, the very famous, Eau Rouge and Raidillion.
I would love to know your views on trying to overtake there.

 

That is not the reason I have in mind. The reason T17 can be considered as a straight when it comes to overtakes is because multiples lines are possibles like in a straight and this is the difference with the following turn (T18) and "Raidillon de l'Eau Rouge" because both have only one line possible and that make overtakes very difficult or almost impossible in these two turns.

 

You missed the whole point of his reply

 

"the driver that is attempting to make a pass has the responsibility to complete that pass safely." I guess this is your argument?
If I understood figure 8 correctly car B changes the line because the driver thought he would have passed car A "enough" since there was no more wheel of car A next to him. I don't know who in their right mind would change the racing line there if he wasn't sure there is nothing, no wheel, no door, no splitter besides him. But if he does, it's his fault obviously. I just can't relate this situation to the one we're talking about. The problem really seems to be how this turn is to be defined when it comes to overtaking. As I already said you don't need to hit any apex in order to stay on track and/or not lose time.

Let's say you have a better exit out of the first chicane at Monza than the guy in front. He recognizes you and drives to the left so he has the opportunity to defend in the second chicane. Just before the right turn your nose is at his rear axis. Do you have to lift now because he has the right to change his line again? I quite honestly never saw this.

 

So Nurburgring GP T1 is not turn 1 becuase you have a really shallow righthander before the hairpin and you have to turn otherwise you go off track and has a curb, the straight between Ford and Dunlop is not a straight for the same reason? Phils13 message wasn't great I get it, but it's not a good reason to treat others like they are dumb.

 

The main thing to me is that you are not only racing the car next to you but all the cars behind you, and if you are trying to go side by side everywhere you are costing time for both cars. So often I catch two faster cars who are refusing to work together on pace. I'm not going to try to pass someone at a bad spot if it's likely to get me a challenge from a car 5 seconds back. So I only pass where it don't cost much time. Usually only 1-3 turns on each track.

 

The moment he started turning in at 1:19 would be interesting to see from a bird's eye view, i don't think there's much of an overlap at all, at the time of contact there's maybe 20cm (?) of an overlap, splitter not even alongside the rear tyre - don't think that's enough.

Any steward in any racing series would put the blame on Midnight, i believe.

 

I disagree , the Audi had a run on him and the Lambo saw him coming. He also saw him disappear from his rear mirror.His radar and spotter would have warned him, all of this before he decided to turn in on a piece of road he could have stayed in lane on and lost no time.

So his thinking was something like 'I know he is on my inside but I'll turn in anyway rather than hold my line and hope he backs out or mounts the kerb'.

He should be thinking 'dam I messed up that exit (must do better next time), he's got a run on me, this will be wheel to wheel for a while, should be fun, I hope I can hold him off, I'll have a dam good go. If not we have the rest of the race to battle it out'.

 

I didn’t, but to be sincere I shouldn’t have replied @elkingdu50 as I did.
My apologies for that.

 

Yeah, you’re absolutely right on this.
Apologies for that.
Let me call it as a accident, also.

 

As a matter of fact I do and I not only have seen it as I myself have lift of in that exact situation in some races.

By the way, wasn’t Leclerc that made that move on Hamilton this last F1 season?
Hamilton complain was Leclerc didn’t give him enough room, but not for Leclerc going right before the 2nd chicane.