Who's at Fault? - Discussing Racecraft and Incidents

That was my feeling as well, the Audi opened up slight leading to the accident. If you pull a divebomb (it was a soft one), you need to make sure you can hold the inside most line until you´re clear of the other car. Until than he has the right to the racing line. It was a small mistake and he didn´t leave a lot of room, but still more on the Audi side.
That is why I hardly ever attack on the inside line in MP, I´m just not 100% sure wether I can safely hold the line on the inside curb. Got punted like that dozens of times already by some heros (usually way worse divebombs than AM did in that video), though.

About the wrecking part afterwards I already expressed my opinion before

 

After_Midnight's right side wheels appear to be on the curb at the moment of impact so I'm not sure how much more inside you expect him to be. He was part way along side at the entry to the breaking zone. It was just unfortunate, I suspect maybe Spadon didn't fully appreciate how close they were. Their actions after the incident however, unforgiveable. Hope they get to take a nice long bath after that if Kunos see and decide to do anything about it - assuming this was on a CP server.

 

Agreed, but from my experience, having to put two wheels on a curb, makes holding a line more difficult.
Dropping the throttle to hold the line, might have actually made thing worse.

A still like the,... "racing incident", as the door might have gotten smaller, the farther they got into the corner, after the AUDI was commited.

 

I find this naive to think.
Back in iRacing some of the biggest bastards were collected in something called the Porsche iRacing supercup.
Competing for prizes the truly unsportsmanlike nature of them comes out.
Speed =/= sportsmanship.

 

In slowmo at the point of contact there wasn't quite enough room although at least he attempted to leave room.
If I was in a generous mood towards him I'd say racing incident.

 

I said earlier that in my view it was more of a fault from After Midnight. What I didn´t really consider was how you´re supposed to defend against someone braking late on the inside line. Do you have to block the inside line on the straight already? Leads to both drivers loosing a lot of time, but from that perspective, After Midnight would be clear and the Lambo would be at fault.
My view was more like the leading driver before the overtake has free choice of racing line (While keeping it consistent, i.e. no weaving). The following car has to comply with that line until he is completely clear in front of the previously leading car. That´d mean that in this situation the Audi should have braked and cleared the inside line. If the car which took the inside line from behind inhibits the leading car from following the racing line, that´d be what I consider a divebomb.
Also from my point a divebomb can be quite fine if you manage to not inhibit the other cars line, meaning that you manage to get ahead of the previously leading car before it goes in towards the apex. Very hard to judge though.

(This is just to clear my understanding, nothing personal against After Midnight at all)

 

Can we have an outside view of this? It looks a little bit like the Audi slid of the curb and thats why he had contact with the Lambo. In the video there is a little jump in the car before the contact. From the two cockpit cams its hard to tell whos really at fault here.

 

Well... I'd like to have the far chase cam for both cars to be able to tell who's at fault here.

My thoughts here are:
The Audi was alongside at the breaking point. The Lambo clearly had the spotter telling him "car right!", so he knew he had to leave enough space for the Audi or crash.
If the Audi stays on the curb it is the Lambo not letting enough space.
If the Audi slid from the curb to the outside it's the fault of the Audi.

Apart from that, this turn gets very tight and it was a risky move after all. I wouldn't recommend such an overtake attempt there.
The Lambo could have defended better, when he accelerated out of Les Combes after the overtake of the lapper he should have seen @After_Midnight in the Audi coming up on him and immediately defend the inner line, sacrificing the racing line to stay ahead. After_Midnight wouldn't have had a chance to try a move on the outside line of Bruxelles.
Yeah, I know it's easy to say afterwards, sitting in a relaxed way watching a video and not racing there in that moment. That's what we are doing here. ‍ I don't blame the Lambo for not defending better, I don't blame Midnight for trying the overtake.

Yes, if you don't want the other car going alongside you on your inside line and giving it the chance to outbreak you in the next turn, you have to commit to the inside line as soon as you are aware the other car has a run on you; forcing the other car to try going on the outside or back off without pushing it off the track.

PS: After the Lambo failed his first attempt of rage revenge in Bruxelles (kudos to After_Midnight for evading) I wouldn't have blamed AM if he pushed the Lambo off track on the way to Pouhon. It was too obvious the Lambo wouldn't let go, so better pushing him off than being pushed and maybe even wrecked for the rest of the race.

 

No I disagree, Yes the lambo can choose the line as long as there is no overlap or huge speed differential (in close proximity).
Once the lambo decided to leave space he could have defended by going quick enough to maintain the lead and/or the inside line into the next left-hander.

I really don't like dive-bombing it requires the lead driver to comply and not complete his turn-in.

 

Yeah top down would be good

 

Just to clarify my comment.
I didn't want to enforce dive bombing by no means. Dive bombing is a bad and mean move and should be punished.
I was referencing the situation between the Lambo and the Audi, where the Audi had a run on the Lambo and went alongside already before the break point. So no dive bombing there.

 

So as long as you leave the door open on corner entry it is okay for a following driver to take the inside line (if he has overlap or is faster) and make the front driver completely miss the apex? I need to up my blocking game than.

It does kind of makes sense and you also see it in real racing. Still not a big fan of diving in like that in (public) MP.
CP servers within a good fight it´s a totally different thing though, if you know that your opponent is aware of you chasing him and you know his brake points and possible weak spots it is time to pull some moves.

 

Again, I'm not talking about dive bombing, where the following car at the brake point is clearly behind you and brakes too late causing a crash or forcing you off your line while under braking. That's not what I'm talking about.

Defending the inside line already before break point will avoid that "game" trying to brake later than the other often ending in a crash or both missing the apex. Of course this makes sense only if after the turn is just a short straight until next braking. If there is a longer straight you'll sacrifice much speed and going to be an easy prey on the straight and next brake point. So in that latter case it may be a good option giving the inside line and the corner to the other car but preparing your exit early that you'll have the better acceleration and will have the switchback on that straight.

 

Yeah, I got that part. That´s why I added the part in the brackets.

 

My opinion is that the Lambo didn't give enough room. After the braking zone, the Audi was alongside and then the Lambo should have given him more room. They made a mistake and the Audi jumped all over it.

This type of pass have occurred soooo much in F1. Usually what then happens is the Audi would have eased to the outside pushing the Lambo off track on the exit unless they slowed down.
Thats in real life and in F1.
What normally happens to me is the Lambo would have given me the apex, but carried speed on the exit, where I would have eased to the outside on exit (same as in F1), but with me is more sliding than easing due to too much speed. Difference is that the Lambo wouldn't have slowed and let me finish the pass, but stayed his course resulting in a spin from me and the lambo carrying on.

Other differences between F1 overtakes and ACC for me
- F1 has the lead car closing the door when the following car isn't close enough, which would normally result in a crash in ACC
- F1 always cover the inside line early, when ACC most people don't (apart from the vid on the last page). This is to avoid dive-bombing
- F1 has less divebombing (now Crashardo is gone), which is mainly since its their lives at stake compared to quiting and joining another server


ACC is a sim, clean overtaking is hard, even when people make mistakes. For my skill level, a touch is usually a spin, so that means I'm more careful when attempting, esp when I'm not used to braking off-line, so don't have a feel for marble effect, braking points at a different angle, have to make sure you kiss the apex and not miss it.
I like the AI, but they encourage dive-bombing since they get out of your way too easily, so alot of people take that into online.

 

Is it possible to ban the guy in the Lambo?
If not, there should come systems to do so.

 

First things first: Guys, you are awesome. Great analyzes, great explanations, great racing intelligence, great and respectful attitude. Thanks to all of you
I've to agree to all your comments.

In my personal point of view both drivers were too aggressive. Especially in the first lap of the race. Cold tires, cold brakes. But I'd blame myself more for the incident.


All fine so far. But I know already Spadon will not left much space on the inside.


Still all fine. I can hold the inside line but the Lambo come closer and closer. Staying at the brakes would tend to understeer at this point so I try to let the car roll and apply a bit of throttle to stabelizing the car.


Now I run out of space to stay at the curb. The green astro turf ends and now I've two wheels at the gras. The car bounce just a little bit, goes a bit straight and the right front wheel slide off the curb.


And this is how it ends.

 

If I was the Lamborghini driver I might have given you a tad more room knowing I possibly had a better exit from the corner and the inside to the next one. Live to fight another day.

 

I didn't read all comments. IMO Lamborghini should left more space (half of car more, no more, no less). I had many situations like this, usually Im on Audi side (try to overtake) but sometimes in situation like Lambo as well. I think it was aggresive try to overtake but still safe (Audi tried to keep inner line through all corner). Lambo before this corner for sure saw that Audi is quick and on straight before corner saw Audi is much faster than him. When you analyze every FOR and AGAINST defending Lambo driver should just leave it and let Audi through and later due race should take back eventually position. I would do that as Lamborghini driver. And I would do probably same like Audi did.