Who's at Fault? - Discussing Racecraft and Incidents

Given that you were in one of the public server races I was in last week I assume that this was in a public server race as well? If so those moves from the Porsche were quite tame in my experience!

As others have said you could have done more to avoid the contact and anticipated the move a bit more - in my experience (that's an important point) you have to expect moves like that in a circa 20 minute public server race. If you don't then your safety rating will go down the pan. Both were legitimate overtaking spots (Pouhon and the final chicane). I also really wouldn't take that as a pointer to making your own moves more aggressive, as again IME I find that the same person that's happy to do that is also incapable of leaving room for someone else and racing side-by-side. Again, if you do that your safety rating will do down the pan.

Put it this way - last night I tried a new tactic at Monza. I invalidated all of my qually laps to start from the back of the grid and then lifted when the lights went green. The result? 25th to 4th by the end of 30 minutes (so granted a bit long than most public server races) and my cleanest race for a long time. I was also more cautious with my overtakes - to the point of lifting where I could have put myself side-by-side into corners like Lesmo 2. Most people fall off when you put them under a bit of pressure.

David, you strike me as one of the good guys. Don't become more aggressive, just become better at choosing your overtakes and anticipate those moves a bit more

 

Tnx mate, yeah it was a public race and i started at the back. This was a last lap battle for 7th.
The worst part is that i was about 2 seconds a lap faster than this guy but i made a tiny mistake after i overtook.him, which gave him the chance to this.
I must say i didnt expect this either because i was quite a lot faster than him.

But lessons are learned here, it was actually a really good race with people racing clean which i didnt see for a long time.

Both moves shown in the video is right after i overtook him, this is also why i didnt expect it that much.

But you are right, i might get further with not taking too many risks.
I am not concerned for SA it is still 96 and this race even increased my safety as it was close and clean untill this point.

Tnx for all the feedback.

To sum up, dont copy this aggresiveness but expect it at any time...

 

Typically there are two type of driver’s attitude: “I rather live to fight” and “I rather die fighting”.

The drivers within the first state of mind are focused in the full race, while fighting to gain or keep places, but unwilling to compromise their own race just for the sake of an immediate overtake; on the other hand, the drivers within the second state of mind are mainly focused in overtakes, fighting impatiently to gain or keep a position, willing to compromise the whole race for the sake of an immediate overtake, regardless of the consequences.

The second type of drivers, usually, are very dependent of how the other drivers are able to avoid them, because their own driving is quite reckless when close to other cars.

The first type of drivers, rely much more on their own driving to reach their goal, with a thoughtful driving.

 

@Luis Branco summarises it well - the second type of driver is also the one that just quits after not succeeding when pulling that move or just if they have a spin. I tend to persist on to the end of the race unless my car is totally destroyed (very rare). Most just quit, hence you only get 15 finishers out of 30 starters at a place like Monza.

I'd also add that IME you need to expect a fight back/move from the car you've just overtaken, whether you're 0.2s faster or 2s faster - often the overtaker is compromised when they do their move and can take a few corners/half a lap to settle back into a rhythm. Up until that point they're vulnerable IMO, and need to expect a possible move from the car they've overtaken. Taken the other way round, I've had quicker cars pass me, but then pretty much fall straight off when I've applied the little bit of pressure I can in the short time they're vulnerable. They can often end up over driving the car and make themselves slower in the process.

Just food for thought.

 

Yes, could be.
For me a dive bomb is a very late move without announcing your overtaking, without having a proper space to own and to crash/push another car with no chance of avoiding it by yourself.
In my definition it doesn't matter if you can hold your line.
If you can hold your line but that line is occupied by the other car and you can't avoid a push/crash then you dive bombed. If the other driver avoided the crash by going wide or even straight doesn't get rid of my definition of dive bomb.

 

In real life amateur racing we call these people douchebags. Sure we are racing which is inherently dangerous and you shouldn't put anything on track you're not willing to lose, but what are we racing for but fun and a $10 trophy, meanwhile moves like that can have real financial consequences for a lot of guys who can't afford to continue racing for that season or more when their car gets wrecked. In amateur racing anyway its just disrespectful of your opponents. That said, sometimes the lead guy is a jerk and blocking you so hard you don't really have a choice.

I tried that two nights ago at Monza. Even basically blowing off Quali I ended up 24th out of 26. I lifted way early, watched the chaos unfold, and then got punted while still going forward by the 26th place car.

 

Ha ha ,I had a Spa race where I started 25th out of 26 with the hope of making my way up the leader-board during the 30 minute race. Needless to say there was a huge pileup at Eau Rouge, anticipating this I slowed only to get hit by the one guy behind me.
Serves me right for joining a mid SA rated server .

 

Tend to agree but,...
- In the 1st incident, there was plenty of room, the passing car was beside the lead car before the apex/curb, and held its line, then the lead car turned in.
- We will never know if the passing car could have held its line, as the lead car ran into it.
- The lead car didn't make any move to protect the inside line, however that is disliked,... that is race'n, especially if you see the car behind is carrying more speed.
- I don't think that was dive booming, in the 2nd incident, most defiantly.

 

I see your point, but not even halfway my car when i turned. Is that besides enough for a proper overtake?
The only way for me to avoid that was to compromise my entire corner.
I went far more to the inside than i normally do at that corner, so at least i thought i was defending. But apparently not enough.

This is the moment i turned into the corner:



And this is the moment of impact.

 

Sounds like I got lucky then lol!

 

It might not be enough for a proper overtake in your book, or many other people's books but the point is that the 911 hasn't read any of those books! His body language, and the fact that he's got a tiny run on you would be screaming a red flag for me that he's going to try a move. I think you have to accept that he's going to compromise your corner whatever happens - you either have to be far more explicit in your defensive line, so there's nothing more than a car's width to the left (or less, just don't change line once you've decided that). Or you bank on the fact that he's probably going to brake late, maybe run wide, compromise his exit speed etc. So keep him left and brake slightly early. Get on the power early and you might even have him on the inside of the 2nd part of Pouhon, if not you may well get a run on him down to the next corner. Or plenty of opportunities to pressure him into a mistake for the remainder of the lap at Spa.

 

Agree, I feel this is a common issue here, just what is far enough up the inside to assume that is your/our corner, 10%, 20%, 50%, one wheel, at the door edge ?

We need the have an agreed standard for this and other debatable "ifs", to have meaningful discussions here.

 

Another one added to the mix:

https://streamable.com/oorjjb

 

On first quick viewing - mostly Bentley. He left a dirty great big gap there and expected no one to be there when he tried to eventually make the apex; the camera car should have been showing up on his radar and helicorsa and would likely have been showing on it at T1 at the Nurburgring as well. Mostly but not fully as our camera car could have avoided that - the Bentley starts to close down that gap way before we get there so we've got plenty of warning to lift out.

 

I feel for you mate, but you need to either defend the inside and let them try to go to the outside, or leave the inside and hope they don't drift too much into you.
If a guy is 0.1-0.2 behind me, I kinda think that they are going to have a go at passing
If they are 0.3, I'm usually safe, or I get hit at the apex.

For the first incident, he was wicked close, so I would have chosen my line and let him have the other one.
You stayed to the rightish, so he chose the inside. He was late in trying to overtake attempt either to get the slip-stream, or wait to see what you were doing as you drifted to the left after no-name corner.
Your radar should have told you where he was and then leave him some room and hope he doesn't hit you on the exit.

2nd incident, I believe that you should have given the apex again, but then you would get it for next corner, then he would really compromise himself on the final corner being on the inside and you would have a better run onto the final straight.

You fought hard for your place, and I don't blame you not wanting to give it up, esp after a mistake. For me, after a mistake pass is hard as you are kicking yourself twice.
These 2nd incident corners in Spa to me aren't about defending the first overtake, its about setting them up to compromise themselves for the next straight.

2 races last night at Nurburg and Monza where I started last (24ish on both) and ended up 9th and 6th after first lap respectively.

 

Bentley, altough it looks like he sort of lost it.. swerved to the left.

 

I've done a Bentley too many times. I've been focused on the overtake and running close to the car ahead, I forget that there is someone behind me. This is worse when the position fighting drops your lap time by 1 sec so they are now caught up.
Radar is great, but I've ignored it as I believe that its only showing the car ahead and I see that 2nd gap open up.. its a great move.. that car already in the gap was 1 sec behind me over the start line... oh crap.... sorry mate.

 

Yep. This is what happened. I was trying the switchback and didn't even see him. Looking at the replay it looks like he could've avoided but choosed not to.

 

I don't get it. The Bentley starts moving toward the inside kerb long before the camera car gets alongside it. Why would that be the Bentley's fault?

 

The Bentley missed the apex, then trying to take it back by turning in late, which in my opinion, was not correct, but the passing car wasn't exactly correct either.