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Who's at Fault? - Discussing Racecraft and Incidents

Discussion in 'ACC General Discussions' started by m_box97, Jan 15, 2020.

  1. mau92

    mau92 Hardcore Simmer

    So I was having a conversation with a friend after doing some mixed races, both of us in GT4. He had a couple of incidents in which a GT3 rear ended him, I'll try to explain these as clear as possible:

    - At Kyalami, after the fast right hand corner (Right before the last turn), he noticed he had a GT3 car behind about to lap him. So he moved out of the way right after the turn by going to his right. In doing so he blocked, unintentionally, the GT3 car who was about to overtake him and got rear ended. Watching the replay I could see that, if he stayed on the left the GT3 car had enough space to overtake my friend, and he had enough time to take the ideal line into the corner. So I said "I think it's your fault, in your good will, you blocked the guy and ended in an incident", we both agreed. Which takes us to the next scenario.

    - At Nurburgring, he had a GT3 behind right into the entrance of the back straight (Turn 12) that leads to the fast chicane on the last part of the circuit. This time he kept his line, at the left side of the track as he was exiting the corner. The GT3 car had enough space to go to the right to overtake and settle for the fast right hander before heading to the chicane. Instead, the GT3 when straight into his ***, rear ending him.

    So this brought us a question... What GT4s have to do or what GT3s have to expect? As far as I know both cars are responsible for a safe maneuver, so should GT4s move out of the way at all costs or are GT3s responsible to find the space as soon as possible (Knowing they are A LOT faster) to overtake. I listen... Well read.

  2. aotto1977

    aotto1977 Hardcore Simmer

    Haha, yep – my fault.

    But seriously; as you might possibly see in the other bits of the video, down the whole Mountain Straight he never was close enough that my choice of line actively blocked him. It was a mere signal of "I'm not going to invite you to an overtake".
    He had gained, if at all, maybe some tenths towards me since the last lap, otherwise I'd rather let him overtake and carry on with my own pace instead of impatiently being pushed though the whole mountain section.
  3. bhowe83

    bhowe83 Gamer

    My view of the accident is that it's the lambo's fault but I do see how this ended up happening. In his mind he probably saw you head toward the defensive line and expected you to take that line into the corner. Thinking that, he assumes you'll have a compromised entry and he can probably get you around the outside and have the preferred line up towards the cutting. Unfortunately for both of you, you came back towards the racing line which still compromised your entry and you ended up on the brakes about 50m before the usual braking zone at the driveway on the left. The Lambo just didn't react quick enough to this and committed to their normal brake point. Personally if I was the Lambo I'd have probably dived up the inside once you moved back and broke early.

    Personally as a rule of thumb when defending on entry I try to not move laterally within the last 100 or so meter before I get on the brakes. At that point if an opponent hits you under braking they really have no argument as they had plenty of time to figure out where you were going to be at on track for entry.
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
    AndyK70 likes this.
  4. romandevision

    romandevision Simracer

    This retard is completely inadequate. A classic idiot with an inferiority complex - for some reason youtube periodically added his video to my recommendations, probably because he speaks Russian, but ignoring it helped to clean up this garbage.

    I can translate what he says, "Die, gay". When you live in Russia for a long time, you cease to be surprised by aggressive and not very developed people - they are mostly my compatriots.
    SYBER1AN, chksix and AndyK70 like this.
  5. AndyK70

    AndyK70 Hardcore Simmer

    The latter one.
    Minolin already made it very clear from the beginning of mixed races:
    Chris 576 and mau92 like this.
  6. wedge_one

    wedge_one Simracer

    From the official Competitive server.

    Just look at this BMW guy:

    I gave him space. He launched his car into mine basically twice.

    Don't be this guy.

    This was on the third lap on a 45min race. This spin destroyed my tires, gave me some flat spots. Had to race with it for the rest of the race. Didn't what to pit and lose more time. Managed to finish in 6th still.

    I raced with him on the next race, had a talk and he behaved himself properly.

    Also it wasn't the safest move from my part, I didn't think he was going to commit the overtake with me flashing my lights and everything. And I was already committed to the corner and an alternate line to simply cancel the move which I imagine I had the priority.
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
  7. AndyK70

    AndyK70 Hardcore Simmer

    Well... just above your post I quoted minolin how to behave in mixed class.

    Please read again, slowly and fully:
    The GT4 were in a battle.
    They were not much slower than you.
    You dived into the racing line when the two GT4 were already 2-wide.
    You should have backed up and got them the next corner.

    In your first video (outside camera) after the first collision the BMW behaves strange, maybe netcode? From that perspective can't really judge if he drove into you, or just wanted to get back on track and was struggling to keep the car straight and maybe netcode issues played a role, too.

    Concluding: The first impact, in my opinion, was on you. The second impact I can't judge. Maybe he drove into you, maybe he struggled to keep the car and maybe netcode was guilty a hit was recorded. I don't know.
    matt_had likes this.
  8. Milthael

    Milthael Rookie

    The situation as a whole is 100% your fault. You approached the situation as if you were racing the GT4 cars and had a right of way. You tried to steal the apex from the BMW like stealing candy from a child.
    The GT4s were in battle and you created the whole situation by trying to overtake both of them into the turn. The BMW was probably very stressed from overtaking into a high speed corner while at the same time having an approaching GT3 behind.
    The second contact seems to me like the BMW was desperate trying to keep it's position after being pushed off the track.

    You should have backed off and waited until after the turn and then make a new assessment on how to approach the overtake in a safe manner. As far as I can see there was no other GT3 nearby so there was absolutely zero risk for losing a track position.

    There is no reason to go full David Perel on the flash button behind the GT4s, the drivers are well aware (and probably a bit stressed) that you are approaching from behind.

    Behaviour like this from GT3s completely ruin the race experience for a GT4 driver. Please keep in mind that every GT4 wants to be overtaken as smoothly as possible, GT4s and GT3s are not racing each other so it's in both drivers interest to get it done nice and smoothly.

    The best thing you could do to improve in these situations is probably to drive a couple of days with a GT4 in mixed races to see for yourself how infuriating this behaviour is.
    Also try to have a more open mentality instead of the whole "had to talk to him and then he behaved properly" - mixed class racing is still a new thing for most ACC drivers and we are all learning.
  9. mau92

    mau92 Hardcore Simmer

    Thanks for the heads up! Also, I wasn't sure how to use the indicators, will try to do it more often now.
    AndyK70 likes this.
  10. wedge_one

    wedge_one Simracer

    I was in the middle of the track, he had the entire left side, I was already ahead of him, he hit me on the left rear tire. 100% my fault as if there wasn't enough space.
  11. f1200racer

    f1200racer Racer

    With out reviewing all the GT3/GT4 incidents. During Mixed Class Racing in real life it is the RESPONSIBILITY of the fast car to overtake the slower car in a safe Manner. In Regional racing I have been in long involved with there has been that person and his/her new fancy car boasting about how I spent all this money and my car is faster then everyone get out of my way but that is rare and after some education from the regulars you usually don't see them again after few weekends.

    As for the slower car GT4 in this case. We are taught to hold your line when a faster car is approaching again its their responsibility to pass you safely don't be unpredictable (unpredictable has consequences I've seen it) don't just to move out of the way for the person behind because they may have had the same idea of going in that same sport

    If you watch the IMSA series you will also see some examples of the GTLM/GTD cars slightly driving off the racing line into certain corners when the DPI cars approach to just say hey not here wait until after.

    Mixed Class racing really exposes those with good race craft and a good sportsmanship and those without!!

    But then again this is Sim Racing and there are no real life consequences
  12. Burnleyhome

    Burnleyhome Racer

    When I'm in a GT3 and coming up to GT4's, I flash my lights when I'm within 1 second, then go round them and let them keep the racing line.
    If we are coming up to a corner, I will wait and use my acceleration to pass them (even on a short straight) - MOST of the time, I will move off the racing line behind them wait 1/2 sec to make sure they are staying on the racing line, and make the pass. I've had GT4 drivers try to help me and I've accidently rear-ended them for their troubles (both go off racing line after a corner).

    I have taken the inside line a couple times, since the GT3 has way better brakes, but I make sure that I hug the apex and give the GT4 loads of room.

    Its actually alot of fun passing GT4 cars in a GT3, feels like a SP arcade game.
  13. henkjansmits

    henkjansmits Simracer

    Yeah this sounds good. As GT4 I would say don't go for the apex unless you are really close behind the GT4. The overtakes around the outside work really well, especially for chicanes/sections where the next corner you have the inside.

    The only issue is the GT3s who are too far behind but who think "if I flash I should get room on the inside".

    I'd rather have no flashing at all except the dark/rain. You know from the blue flag in general that the GT3 is coming even if you are battling away.
    Audun Sjøen likes this.
  14. Milthael

    Milthael Rookie

    This is by far the most sensible approach, minimal risk for both cars and the GT4 driver doesn't get interrupted into the corner. It would have been great if there was a 10 lap required scenario with scripted AI where every driver had to demonstrate their skills to handle mixed class racing in this manner to be allowed to drive mixed multiplayer races, just like every driver has to raise their TR and SA to be able to join races.
  15. Burnleyhome

    Burnleyhome Racer

    My main reason for flashing is that the car ahead is notified in the top middle of the screen as well as top left. I only put the flashing on, then off again.
    I do this if I'm on the same lap as them (after a spin, collission, etc). I believe that blue flags are shown as well in this scenario, but I'm not positive.
  16. Turk

    Turk Alien

    I wouldn't have a problem with a flash just so you know they are there. A GT4 driver could be focusing on what's in front and not notice the GT3 coming up behind. As long as they aren't obnoxious about it, I don't really see a problem.
    LATE4APEX and AndyK70 like this.
  17. stephen_b

    stephen_b Racer

    Knock yourselves out with these two - top split CP server.

  18. GT3 drivers fault in both cases.
    LATE4APEX likes this.
  19. Winston

    Winston Hardcore Simmer

    GT3 first video GT4 second video, in the second the GT4 should have picked a side early and held it.
    XIV-V and Salvatore Amato like this.
  20. AndyK70

    AndyK70 Hardcore Simmer

    First video GT3's fault at 100%

    second video: 50:50
    explanation: The GT4 should have picked a side and stick to it, he changed from left to right. Even better if the GT4 would have used his turn signal to show where he would go/stick. But I can understand the GT4, when in his left mirror are multiple head lights showing up, you think ok, that's the side they want to pass, so I go to the right... With a single monitor you easily overlook someone is already on your right. At least the radar should have had warned him. To bad many drivers don't use them because of "immersion break".
    The GT3 made an unsafe pass attempt. He is the faster car and it is his obligation to pass in a safe manner. He picked a side without having the momentum and he wasn't accelerating faster out of the corner because he was to close at the Camaro in the corner. Would he have let a bit more space in the turn he could have accelerated much earlier and faster and made that pass before next turn. Both did not well.
    Cirith Ungol and JanR like this.
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