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Who's at Fault? - Discussing Racecraft and Incidents

Discussion in 'ACC General Discussions' started by m_box97, Jan 15, 2020.

  1. Snoeipaard

    Snoeipaard Racer

    I just love these pot blames the kettle comments :D
     
    AndyK70 and GONKO like this.
  2. GONKO

    GONKO Racer

    So, here is one mull over....

     
  3. GONKO

    GONKO Racer

    Another, same race. Felt like wreckfest today.
     
  4. Muxi-Mux

    Muxi-Mux Gamer

    Second one is Lambo‘s fault for me. First he moved in the braking zone than he blocked the Bentley after the hairpin. This guy seems neither fair nor smart nor a good driver to me.
     
  5. moeppling

    moeppling Gamer

    First: Lambo caused the situation by missing the braking zone and consequently having to bleed off a bunch of speed mid corner. Audi didn't do everything he could to avoid it. Slapping the brakes while trailbraking was the obvious solution.

    Second: On the Lambo. That's not how i would defend from a cut-back in T1/T2. Stick to the inside on entry/apex of T1 and start creeping towards the outside on exit so you end up on the inside of T2. Otherwise they'll delay their cut-back in T1, get a better T1 exit and squeeze into the T2 inside on entry while you're still hugging the ideal line. Lambo must've seen the cut-back happening, yet proceeds to take the ideal line.
     
  6. Winston

    Winston Hardcore Simmer

    First one Audi obviously ( hit the guy twice)
    Second one Bentley, Lambo moved first then braked which was fine.
    Bentley cut the corner , lost control and under-steered into him.
     
    Snoeipaard likes this.
  7. Martiparti87

    Martiparti87 Rookie

    The most obvious line for the defender would be to get to the inside of T2, and thats what the car behind probably anticipates. But yeah in this case he misses his apex and understeer into the defender
     
  8. Guidofoc

    Guidofoc Alien

    Hmm. The Bentley is a bit too optimistic, yes. But for me the Lambo does not drive correctly against the Bentley and has part of the responsibility for the crash. This is not road driving where whoever is behind is at fault. In racing you need to take a clear line early enough, stick to it, show a predictable behavior and always give enough space. Against the Bentley, the Lambo leaves enough space between itself and the apex for someone to dive into, and then pretends there is no one there.
     
  9. GONKO

    GONKO Racer

    Did the Bentley drive into the Lambo?
    Wasnt the lambo the lead car?
    You think it's OK for following car to drive into leading cars?
    And the lambo defends on the inside, obviously has a much slower apex and exit. But you think its the lambos fault for going slower?.
    Would it be fairer if the lambo kept race speed on a tight line and under steered off, allowing the Bentley past?
     
  10. GONKO

    GONKO Racer

    So if a leading car makes a mistake by braking a bit too late, recovers, bleeds off speed and remains on its line....a following car is justified to hit into it?

    You see when I race, I expect mistakes, I expect to have to take avoiding action. This is racing, not hotlapping where there are no other cars making mistakes.

    Off topic, it explains the state of the servers when people think its acceptable to drive into another car, just because it needs to bleed off speed mid corner.
    If you can't pass cleanly, don't pass.
    If the guy in front is under pressure and making small mistakes, just wait, the time will come.
    This is called race craft.
     
    Pandora likes this.
  11. GONKO

    GONKO Racer

    I thought the Lambo was predicable. Took a very tight apex, exit was therefore a lot tighter. Bentley understeer a good bit and hits lambo. There was a lot of space left, just the Bentley line was not tight enough.
    I've been the Bentley on a lot of occasions here. When I see a tight defence, I abort and go for t2. All the lead car has to do is park it on the apex exit to defend properly. Any lead car is entitled to do this. Its up to the attacking car to find a safe way past. As a follower, you have to expect all sorts of defences.
    But they key thing is, space was left for the Bentley on the inside. Lambo forces the Bentley ultra tight to protect its exit speed, Bentley doesn't have the front end and understeers
     
  12. Burnleyhome

    Burnleyhome Racer

    1st one - Lambo fault.
    Defending car went wide and should have given up the inside and conceeded the place instead of closing the door when the horse has bolted.
    2nd hit was, in my opinion, the state of drivers online today.

    2nd one - 50/50
    Lambo went for inside line, where (from my experience), you either go slow and hug the inside all the way, or overshoot the apex and be on the outside.
    Lambo was unpredictible for me being that they missed the apex, then pulled back to the inside too late when a car was already there.
    Attacking car went too quickly and committed before seeing where the Lambo was going.
     
  13. GONKO

    GONKO Racer

    Defending car didn't go wide. It was hit from behind, pushed wide through the rear losing grip, and then hit a second time to cause the spin.
     
  14. GONKO

    GONKO Racer

    Stick to racing AI if your presupposing moves on a corner.
    The Lambo slows on apex and takes a tight to normal exit, which it's entitled to do.
    The lambo didn't turn into the bently, not cut it off entirely. There was lots of room left for a tight exit for bently.
    In fairness, if your into full predictable racing, don't race humans. Racing is unpredictable. But a defending car doing everything and anything to defend is predictable and expected.
    I don't form the opinion of "oh he brakes late, therefore he goes wide and I now take this line no matter what".
    Racing doesn't work like that.
     
  15. Turk

    Turk Alien

    1st one is the audi's fault. It doesn't really matter how badly the lambo takes the corner it's the responsibility of the car behind not to crash into the car in front.

    I'd use the same logic on the second incident but the Lambo didn't help matters. I don't know why he took the corner so sharply, I would have expected the lambo to be moving towards the outside of the track leaving the undercut open. If you were trying to block the undercut then you put yourself in a bad position and while technically the fault is with the car behind, you played a major roll in causing an necessary collision. The Bentley behind wan't going to make that move stick at that angle.

    It's not worth putting your car at risk to defend a position.
     
    AndyK70 likes this.
  16. GONKO

    GONKO Racer

    I see your point here. I took a tight exit to protect my exit speed vs the Bentley into t2.
    I see your point, I'd have had the inside line to t2 anyway and by giving the Bentley extra space, I reduce the risk.

    Your response is the best so far in terms of analysing performance and not just pointing blame.
    I guess I could have done better and I've learned from you here. Thank you.
     
    AndyK70 and Turk like this.
  17. Turk

    Turk Alien

    As I see it you ruined your own exit in the process. I'll usually give them space and take the fight to the next corner, I prefer to protect the car. You probably would have gotten a big gap by maximising the corner exit, meaning he'd have to make back whatever gains he made, which might have taken a lap or more. You had done enough in the corner entry to ruin his line into the corner, going tight undone that work.
     
  18. bhowe83

    bhowe83 Gamer

    First incident seems to be mostly on the Lambo. They went in way too deep on entry, missed the apex, then parked it in front of the Audi. Not much the Audi could do there. Lambo would have been much better off to just roll the corner and take a wide line to get a good launch on exit so they could have the inside line for the S curves. The 2nd bit a contact with the Audi didn't look malicious, it's just the awkward dance that happens when things get hairy in racing. He expects the Lambo to spin or to be heading off line and thinks where they're going is about to be clear, but things change and the 2nd contact is made.

    The 2nd clip was just very odd driving by the Lambo. I can't tell if they're reacting to the slight move right by the Bentley and trying to defend from a dive on entry or if it was the plan the whole time, but it just seemed very erratic and very defensive for how little pressure the Bentley was putting on. The Bentley hitting the curb didn't help the situation, but with how tight the Lambo was on exit I'm not sure that there wouldn't have been contact if the Bentley didn't curb hop. The 2nd incident overall is more of a racing deal, an awkward over under instigated by a very erratic and unpredictable Lambo driver.

    Overall I feel like erratic movement in or just before the braking zones are desperation moves and they typically lead to contact as the desperation normally causes them to overdrive entry and they scramble to recover with contact being made either mid corner or on exit. If you're going to defend, especially from a car that is pretty far back, you ideally need to just move over to the defensive line far before the braking area to fully communicate to the car behind what your plan is and they can form expectations of where your car will be at all points of the corner. Once you reach the braking zone you're both committed to what your plan is for the corner. You're already going to be at maximum braking capacity so any erratic moves that requires a driver to use more braking or adjust their line become close to impossible.
     
    chksix likes this.
  19. Felge Schneider

    Felge Schneider Hardcore Simmer

    First one Audi. He obviously rear ended the Lambo.
    The second one is weirder.
     
    AndyK70 and LATE4APEX like this.
  20. PhilS13

    PhilS13 Alien

    when you realize half the people responding to incidents posted think it's ok to straight up run into a car right in front of them.:(
     
    Winston, GONKO, AndyK70 and 2 others like this.
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